the will to study and listen

[Jundo]

Re: the will to study and listen

Hi Keishin,

These are viewpoints, ways to look at these things. Thanks for sharing yours through your thoughts and values.

Gassho, Jundo

[Stephanie]

Re: the will to study and listen

My apologies to all the free-thinkers and egalitarians of the world, but when one enters a school one ascribes to and adheres to its rules or if one disagrees with those rules finds another school which one feels better being in. If I enrolled at a state college and told the dean of my department that I didn't think any of the electives and only some of the required courses were germaine to me I think I would be invited to find another department or another college. Why do we think it is okay to cafeteria shop the spiritual school?

If we come into a school that has a teacher and ask to be taught...then we ought to open ourselves to be taught. I could only believe that in such a situation the teacher is there and is the teacher because he or she knows more than me. I don't understand the challenging of what is being taught that has been going on here lately. I know it is part if our Western indepent thinking, but since we are treading in a different idiom here shouldn't we at least attempt to follow its rules first before dismissing it as hooey.

Seishin,

Those of us that challenge and question are not refusing to be taught, we are asking to be taught. There are different learning styles...

One of my favorite things to do with friends is get into a vigorous debate, for each of us to defend our positions fiercely, but listen and respond to the points one another is making. I almost always leave such debates with a transformed perspective, sometimes an entire change of opinion. And a friendly feeling, and shared sense of enjoyment from the experience. Of course, not all friends are good candidates for this practice :wink:

I am not a passive learner; if I want to learn, I will ask questions, I will argue, I will pick at things, I will point out contradictions, I will look for the hidden lies. Not because I intend to reject or completely tear apart what I am learning, but because I want to see how it stands up. If it stands up to my "attack," it is worthy. Similar with teachers; I respect and grow to like teachers that can handle a challenge. I have a lot more respect, trust, and affinity for Jundo because we have clashed and sorted it out.

It's sort of like wanting to learn a martial art, and respecting and wanting to learn from a teacher that thoroughly beat you in a fight. If I go into a zendo and up to a teacher and she or he cannot withstand my questions, my challenges, or make a place for my rough edges, I know it is not a place I can learn. Especially since Zen is a study of all of life. This isn't a hobby that need only fit into one protected corner of life.

I am willing to learn from anyone who can teach me, and the way I learn is by asking questions, including difficult questions, honestly, as they arise for me. If I am in an environment where certain things cannot be said to certain people, certain things never questioned... to me, that is a stagnant environment where true learning cannot happen.

Stephanie

[nadia_estm]

Re: the will to study and listen

Buddha said (paraphrasing) believe nothing that you have not tested and proved to be true for yourself....that being said he wholeheartedly threw himself into every practice he did. He lived as a rich person thoroughly, he was a thorough ascetic and only when he lived this way, fully lived did he see it was not right for his questions....I think that is a big point, never stop questioning, or challenging, but neither dismiss something until you have really tested it´s full value. Also knowing that questions can be answered in more ways than one. i see it in the koans....a student questions, a teacher answers, and the answer seems kinda crazy, the student does not get it until he makes it his own, and lives the koan.....maybe some traditions are like koans, not to be understood in their full value until fully lived

[AlanLa]

Re: the will to study and listen

One of the best, if not the very best, lessons I have learned from Buddhism practice here at Treeleaf is to lean into whatever it is in this practice that is being resisted. There is something important on the other side of that resistance, I have found, something worthwhile, something so very valuable yet in an incalculable way. There is nothing wrong with resistance, I don't think, unless you let it keep you from finding that valuable lesson it provides an opportunity to learn. In other words, I think the only thing wrong with resistance is giving in to it. Don't let resistance to what is on this Path keep you from progressing on this Path.

Words will never suffice for why you sew a rakusu or chant or do oryoki or whatever. The only thing that will really explain that "why" is the experience of doing it. Each person needs to find that "why" in their own life. And the answer/experience may not come right away, so be patient with the (non)task and yourself and your teachers and the world as it supports you in the act of discovery.

Deep bows (which I used to find really silly, but I "get" them now in a really profound way)

[Grizzly]

Re: the will to study and listen

Isn't it arrogant to say that sewing is necessary. It may be part of one tradition, but its an activity just like any other. Sure, if you follow Taigu's tradition, then using sewing as a tool is a skilful means and you should follow that for the lessons it will teach...but is it the bare bones of Zen? No!
In fact as Zen is purely about awakening then whatever skilful means that are used are as valid as any other. Your relationship to the skilful means used in the tradition you choose to follow are whats important...is your "I" fighting and resisting or whatever else?
People have awakened in other traditions than Zen too..or no tradition at all.
I think we should hold lightly these opinions and not fall into arrogance of having one true way. We follow Zen because of its skilful means, we shouldn't mistake it for a thing to be solidified, neither should we disrespect its methods or the different methods of its schools.
Rich

[AlanLa]

Re: the will to study and listen

I've been thinking about this some more. The original post talked about playing soccer with his kids being much more important than sewing a rakusu, or other Buddhist activities, if I got that right. Part of this practice is dropping ideas of more and less and to find the value in all the activities we do. So that is fine if soccer with your kids is so valuable, but there can also be great, yet different, value in things like sewing a rakusu, etc. Just because one feels more valuable should not mean that there is no value to be found in that which is resisted.

[Seishin the Elder]

Re: the will to study and listen

Thanks Stephanie, I get a better understanding of how you approach things now. Personally I don't mind a spirited conversation, but " vigorous...fierce debate" would just not be my cup of chai. In those situations I am usually the reed that bends and blows before the wind, remaining unbruised and unbroken. My way is more a way of the heart, but I can certainly understand an intellectual argumentative approach. Some folks have to have those juices flowing, enlivening their intellects; I never have and so it sometimes confuses me when I see or hear people doing that. It makes be think they are unhappy or angry. It really does get confusing from this side of the aisle; but I do understand what you are saying about how you approach things. Thank you for graciously explaining it .

Gassho,

Seishin Kyrill

[murasaki]

Re: the will to study and listen

Seishin, I echo your views exactly.

It is very difficult and uncomfortable for me to watch/experience the process of "rough edges" manifesting and horns locking in order to be sorted out. I know that's my own personal issue but it doesn't go away easily. I feel like learning can take place without locking horns, but again, it's just me. I acknowledge I am delicate.

I'm not trying to pick on anyone specifically when I say that. I am just indicating an effect that can be brought about. Ideally, there is a way to honour both the rough edges and the delicateness. Lessons...

gassho to everyone, it's an informative thread for me.

Julia, trying to lurk a little less.

[Jinyu]

Re: the will to study and listen

My apologies to all the free-thinkers and egalitarians of the world, but when one enters a school one ascribes to and adheres to its rules or if one disagrees with those rules finds another school which one feels better being in

So true Seishin! But it seems very difficult for us, so difficult in our daily lives where we have the habit to choose and question everything!

One of my favorite things to do with friends is get into a vigorous debate, for each of us to defend our positions fiercely, but listen and respond to the points one another is making

And that is one of the things I really like about you! Even if sometimes it is difficult :lol:

Thanks to both of you!

gassho,
Jinyu

[Shogen]

Re: the will to study and listen

Buddha said (paraphrasing) believe nothing that you have not tested and proved to be true for yourself....that being said he wholeheartedly threw himself into every practice he did. He lived as a rich person thoroughly, he was a thorough ascetic and only when he lived this way, fully lived did he see it was not right for his questions....I think that is a big point, never stop questioning, or challenging, but neither dismiss something until you have really tested it´s full value. Also knowing that questions can be answered in more ways than one. i see it in the koans....a student questions, a teacher answers, and the answer seems kinda crazy, the student does not get it until he makes it his own, and lives the koan.....maybe some traditions are like koans, not to be understood in their full value until fully lived

Thank you Nadia! This bell is still ringing. Gassho zak

[Jaana]

Re: the will to study and listen

I have been reading this thread very carefully, and thank you all for your comments.

I feel that Kyrillos is right. If you come to a school that no one forces you into, you have to follow the teachings of that school, or at least honestly try. If you find that you cannot, and the teachers insist it is essential you do (instead of telling you it does not matter), you should not remain there, as it would not be honest and respectful.

Unfortunately for me, while I can understand the value of making a thing mindfully with your own hands, and especially making something that has a tradition behind it, and probably might be interested to try that in the long run too, the idea itself that a kesa is an essential part of practice the same way as zazen is an essential part is an idea that I cannot in honesty and respect accept.

There is a local live group I can consider "mine" that does not think robes essential nor does seem very interested in claiming they know what is essential beyond zazen. I think, emotionally, I am switching over there now, after some consideration, for as much as I need a sangha (though currently to be honest I simply need a better zazen routine :P). Call it cafeteria shopping or whatever, but that's what I feel is the right thing for me to do.

I hope you will not mind me lurking and occasionally taking part in debates, despite all this. I am very new to this and I would still like to hear varying viewpoints.

J

[Jundo]

Re: the will to study and listen

I have been reading this thread very carefully, and thank you all for your comments.

I feel that Kyrillos is right. If you come to a school that no one forces you into, you have to follow the teachings of that school, or at least honestly try. If you find that you cannot, and the teachers insist it is essential you do (instead of telling you it does not matter), you should not remain there, as it would not be honest and respectful.

Unfortunately for me, while I can understand the value of making a thing mindfully with your own hands, and especially making something that has a tradition behind it, and probably might be interested to try that in the long run too, the idea itself that a kesa is an essential part of practice the same way as zazen is an essential part is an idea that I cannot in honesty and respect accept.

There is a local live group I can consider "mine" that does not think robes essential nor does seem very interested in claiming they know what is essential beyond zazen. I think, emotionally, I am switching over there now, after some consideration, for as much as I need a sangha (though currently to be honest I simply need a better zazen routine :P). Call it cafeteria shopping or whatever, but that's what I feel is the right thing for me to do.

I hope you will not mind me lurking and occasionally taking part in debates, despite all this. I am very new to this and I would still like to hear varying viewpoints.

J

Hi Jaana,

Sit there, sit here ... ultimately no here or there. Sit at both and all. Just sit.

Wear a Kesa, don't wear a Kesa ... ultimately nothing not covered by the Kesa.

Gassho, J

[Neika]

Re: the will to study and listen

I find when I am resisting something, there is a rigidity in my thinking that I need to deal with.

[Shokai]

Re: the will to study and listen

Thank you for this sharing of insights and experiences; if I may, I'd like to add mine in hope that I don't bore you all:

My introduction to Zen Buddhism was in a Japanese Temple. It was all very fascinating but awkward; difficult to make those three deep bows, to enter with the right(proper) unshod foot, to hold hands a certain way, to sit with legs cramped (it was the only way, there were no chairs) in an unheated building , to be still for such a long period, to listen to the droning voice of the priest go on and on in a foreign language, :? to join in the chanting of such unintelligible verse. And yet, it moves one to the core; the warm delicious feeling of finally belonging, the acceptance of your fellow beings, the sights and smells that well up memories from so many eons before. i am left with so many Japanese friends that I have never communicated with verbally. And yet, we HAVE communicated. If you postpone judgement and be patient in the research, every thing is fascinating and the awkwardness falls away. The only way I know how to chant is in Japanese (although I had adored Gregorian Chants for many years); my bows and mudras are instinctive; they give meaning to my relationship with the universe.
I wrote a poem a few years back that I think fits here:

Beauty abounds

It is the acceptance of goodness over the rejection of evil
It is the quality that stirs or comforts the soul
It is the soulful song of a lone wolf or the piercing cry of an eagle
It is the radiance of a sunrise or the tranquility of a rainbow
It is the gracefulness of balance or the irony of buffoonery
It is the softness of a kitten or the ruggedness of a mountain path
It is the stillness of a meadow pond or the clamour of a babbling brook
It is the sweetness of honey or the tartness of a berry
It is the mellowness of sweetgrass or the acrid aroma of vinegar
It is a love of this planet; it is the zest for living
If one reserves judgement beauty happens everywhere

gassho,

[Shokai]

Re: the will to study and listen

And now for something on a slightly lighter side:
or should i say, "Shall we end this meeting on a high note!" :roll:

http://j.mp/8XeVLs