Soto Texts

[Saijun]

Hello friends,

I'm currently looking for an English translation of the S?t?sh? nikka gongy? seiten and/or the S?t?sh? gy?ji kihan. I have reason to believe that Rev. Kuchima at the Zenshu-ji Soto Mission is the man I need to talk to, but it appears that he's all kinds of busy.

I know that most all of you are much farther down the path than I am; if any of you have come across a copy, could you please point me to where I need to go?

Thank you for your help, and much Metta,

Perry

[Heisoku]

Re: Soto Texts

Hi Perry
Try this site

http://hcbss.stanford.edu/research/projects/sztp/translations/soto_zen_texts.html

I don't know if it's what you are looking for but ....

Regards Nigel

[Saijun]

Re: Soto Texts

Hello, Friend Nigel,

That is actually the site where I got the temple's contact information; the only thing that the website lists is a table of contents. I'm unsure, though, if that is all the document is meant to contain, and one needs to find the chants and Sutras seperately. Perhaps if Jundo, Taigu, or any of our Reverend Novices read this, they could provide further insight?

Thank you for your help, Nigel. I am grateful.

Much Metta to all,

Perry

[Heisoku]

Re: Soto Texts

Hi Perry
I apologise that I didn't check the link out further, so maybe someone else has further info for you.
I remember Jen created a great Treeleaf Chant book with sutras and chants for all occasions....see link below.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2587&p=36634#p36634

You could pm her to forward a pdf it had meal sutras etc...

With metta Nigel

[Saijun]

Re: Soto Texts

Ah, much gratitude Nigel!

I've emailed Jen to request a copy; it looks much less terrifying than the table of contents from Soto-shu. Thank you for bringing it to my attention!

Metta,

Perry

[Jundo]

Re: Soto Texts

Hello friends,

I'm currently looking for an English translation of the S?t?sh? nikka gongy? seiten and/or the S?t?sh? gy?ji kihan. I have reason to believe that Rev. Kuchima at the Zenshu-ji Soto Mission is the man I need to talk to, but it appears that he's all kinds of busy.

I know that most all of you are much farther down the path than I am; if any of you have come across a copy, could you please point me to where I need to go?

Thank you for your help, and much Metta,

Perry

Well, I'd guess that only a minority of Soto Sangha in the West really use those.

The "S?t?sh? gy?ji kihan"(Standard Observances of the Soto Zen School) is really a manual for priestly ritual, decorum and the details of the performance of ceremonies (the table of contents alone is about 45 pages!). It is not available online, and I do not know if the Soto-shu would make it generally available. It is not really something of interest to the general reader anyway, assuming that you won't be maintaining your own monastery or parish temple!

The "S?t?sh? nikka gongy? seiten" (Soto School Scriptures for Daily Services and Practice) is a more useful text, and is already available online (or at least, the older version was) and in book form. It contains most of the chants we recite here (the Heart Sutra, the Identity of Relative and Absolute, Meal Chants and others). However, most Soto Sangha I know have adapted their own translations, or used translations by other sources (such as Kaz Tanahashi) because the Soto-shu translations are a bit ... well ... stodgy in some parts. I also removed some esoteric elements, Dharani and some phrasing which did not speak to my heart. Most Soto Sangha in the west do not employ all the chants (for example, only some might daily perform ... if they maintain a temple kitchen ... the Sutra Chanting For Tutelary Deities (chinju fugin) and Sutra Chanting For Idaten (idaten fugin), which are not strictly Buddhist figures, but more protective deities of the hearth).

So, we have are own Chant Book here at Treeleaf which (I apologize) I am still updating with Taigu. I will have a new version shortly, and in time for our next 2-day Retreat at the start of December at which we will recite more of the chants therein.

Gassho, Jundo

[Onshin]

Re: Soto Texts

Yes Jundo,
I have noticed with the OBC Liturgy the words have been translated differently for western sensibilities, and in some cases modelled to fit the plain chant rythm. But when I compare the Kesa verse and the five thoughts before eating with the ones Treeleaf show, although different words the meanings are exactly the same. You cannot improve on perfection (or would that get us back to some more of Buddha's greatest mistakes)?

I wonder if that book would help Atomic Spud, just in case here are the details; 'The Liturgy of the Order of Buddhist Contemplatives for the Laity - Shasta Abbey Press 1987. ISBN 0-930066-12-X. Failing that I suppose we could patiently wait for the Treeleaf version :wink:

Good Luck.

Gassho

Joe

[Saijun]

Re: Soto Texts

The "S?t?sh? gy?ji kihan"(Standard Observances of the Soto Zen School) is really a manual for priestly ritual, decorum and the details of the performance of ceremonies (the table of contents alone is about 45 pages!). It is not available online, and I do not know if the Soto-shu would make it generally available. It is not really something of interest to the general reader anyway, assuming that you won't be maintaining your own monastery or parish temple!

With your kind help, maybe someday that could be possible!

I eagerly await the new Treeleaf book. Thank you, Jundo.

Much metta to all,

Perry

[Jundo]

Re: Soto Texts

The "S?t?sh? gy?ji kihan"(Standard Observances of the Soto Zen School) is really a manual for priestly ritual, decorum and the details of the performance of ceremonies (the table of contents alone is about 45 pages!). It is not available online, and I do not know if the Soto-shu would make it generally available. It is not really something of interest to the general reader anyway, assuming that you won't be maintaining your own monastery or parish temple!

With your kind help, maybe someday that could be possible!

I eagerly await the new Treeleaf book. Thank you, Jundo.

Much metta to all,

Perry

In the meantimeless-time ... here are the Chants for our weekly and monthly Zazenkai ...

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2231

... and here, for download, is our existing Chant Book (including Meal Chants, the Heart Sutra in Japanese, Gatha for entering the bath, toilet, teeth brushing ... so much more) ... however, subject to slight change here and there ...

http://sites.google.com/site/jundotreel ... ects=0&d=1

... and what I believe is a bound version that was kindly made by Jen (thank you again, Jen ... I will get back to work on the update! ops: ) ...

viewtopic.php?p=36628#p36628

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Re: Soto Texts

Yes Jundo,
I have noticed with the OBC Liturgy the words have been translated differently for western sensibilities, and in some cases modelled to fit the plain chant rythm. But when I compare the Kesa verse and the five thoughts before eating with the ones Treeleaf show, although different words the meanings are exactly the same. You cannot improve on perfection (or would that get us back to some more of Buddha's greatest mistakes)?

I wonder if that book would help Atomic Spud, just in case here are the details; 'The Liturgy of the Order of Buddhist Contemplatives for the Laity - Shasta Abbey Press 1987. ISBN 0-930066-12-X. Failing that I suppose we could patiently wait for the Treeleaf version :wink:

Good Luck.

Gassho

Joe

Hi Joe,

Yes, that is a very good example of changing the outside of the original (not the heart of the Heart) as East meets West. My understanding is that, by their founder's intent (Rev. Jiyu Kennett) much of the style of their liturgy at OBC does resemble the Anglican/Episcopal Church's "Book of Common Prayer" in style and feel (as you may even sense from the wording of the title of the book) ... and you can hear and see a little here if your speakers are on, a lovely Mass with "Gregorian 'Plain' Chants":

http://www.shastaabbey.org/about-liturgy.html

Gassho, Jundo

[ShinMeiDokuJoh]

Re: Soto Texts

Hello friends,

I'm currently looking for an English translation of the S?t?sh? nikka gongy? seiten and/or the S?t?sh? gy?ji kihan. I have reason to believe that Rev. Kuchima at the Zenshu-ji Soto Mission is the man I need to talk to, but it appears that he's all kinds of busy.

I know that most all of you are much farther down the path than I am; if any of you have come across a copy, could you please point me to where I need to go?

Thank you for your help, and much Metta,

Perry

Dear Perry, until now I found only a german translation of S?t?sh? nikka gongy? seiten.

The good news: starting from page 98 you can find many chantings in Romaji

http://www.zensplitter.de/sztp_deutsch.pdf

Did you get in the meantime a copy of the texts?

With best regards
ShinMeiDokuJoh

[Gregor]

Re: Soto Texts

My copy of Shobogenzo volume 1, is missing. Anybody seen it?

[bayamo]

Re: Soto Texts

My copy of Shobogenzo volume 1, is missing. Anybody seen it?

it's always in the last place you look. :wink: :lol:

[Jundo]

Re: Soto Texts

My copy of Shobogenzo volume 1, is missing. Anybody seen it?

Just open your eyes! The Dharma Treasury is All Around! :shock:

[Fuken]

Re: Soto Texts

Not sure if this was posted elsewhere before, but I think it is relevant to the topic.: http://hcbss.stanford.edu/research/p...han/index.html