Benefits of being Bad?

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

IMO, all 'addictive' behaviors... however they fit into the traditional definition of addiction or not, have at least some physiological component. We repeat behaviors because they are gratifying, and anything that is subjectively gratifying has a neurological correlate. Sex and porn pretty obviously impact the brain's reward centers, and playing video games does as well, if in a more subtle way (the basic underlying 'hook' of any video game is pursuing rewards for successful task completion, it's a very basic thing in terms of biological drives).

I think that's not all there is to it... I don't think strict biology / scientific materialism is a satisfying or complete explanation of subjective human experience. As humans, we are capable of creativity, in which we engage in behaviors that transcend basic biological drives. But I think biology is always a part of it... even with BPD... the low stress tolerance definitely seems to me to be a biological thing that no amount of insight would completely resolve. Just as the neurochemical process of addiction can be activated no matter how much insight a person has into some of the underlying social and psychological factors that contribute to their addictive behavior (e.g. dysfunctional relationships, co-occurring psychological disorders, socioeconomic factors, peer/community norms, etc.).

In my experience I've found that I as well as my clients can rack up insights upon insights and still engage in the same behaviors. Insight can help, it can radically transform, but often it's not enough. If we're living in life circumstances that are difficult or unpleasant, we might understand the root causes of our unhappiness, but the pain, stress, isolation, or whatever we're dealing with is still there to contend with, and so we still react to it. Zazen practice might increase our ability to detach from whatever reaction is arising, but it doesn't make that reaction go away... you might, for example, notice that you're grumpy because it's hot, and therefore not take your grumpy thoughts about other people as seriously, but you're still going to sweat and have a headache and feel less focused and pleasant than usual.

[Shogen]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Al (Jigen), Chet, Stephanie, Chugai, Dosho, Anista, Jundo, ghop
Well done!
Gassho

[AlanLa]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Impermanence is the proponent for constant vigilance. Thoughts are the origin of action, the seeds as it were.To maintain insight, one need's to tend to ones thoughts (seeds). Buddha did not awaken and then say. "Cool, got it, all right! Hell with this forest living, I'm going back to the palace." He continued constant maintenance of his insight.

Nicely said, Chugai

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Impermanence is the proponent for constant vigilance. Thoughts are the origin of action, the seeds as it were.To maintain insight, one need's to tend to ones thoughts (seeds). Buddha did not awaken and then say. "Cool, got it, all right! Hell with this forest living, I'm going back to the palace." He continued constant maintenance of his insight.

Ah yes! But this can be tricky business, in my experience. Too hard, and you're just maintaining an idea that invariably falls out of step with actual reality (do you remember the story about the blind man who was given a lamp even though he was blind. When his light went out and he ran into other travelers on the road, he hadn't realized his light was out.). Too far the other way and it's just rationalizing laziness.

I guess we're just arguing about where that middle ground is. Likely, it's a little different for anyone. Ultimately the decision is ours. If we're dishonest with ourselves, we may rationalize erring in either direction.

I could probably come more in your direction, Chugai.

Chet

[ghop]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

sorry you didn't see it before you posted.

Me too. I seem to be addicted to making an ass out of myself. :roll:

And I really would like a fu@%ing drink :!:

bows

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Gambling is not a physical addiction

Really? Ever been around someone with a gambling addiction when
they were tempted to gamble? Their hands get sweaty and start
twitching, their eyes look like they just took a hit of meth, their
heart starts racing and their blood pressure rises...ALL addiction
is physical because it has its home in the body. It's psychological
too, but one can't deny that it is also physical. Mind and body are
one, remember? Anyway, I appologize if I misunderstood you and
jumped too soon. You're a mentor of mine even when you're
misunderstood. :wink:

gassho

Hey Ghop...yeah...I edited my post because I realized my error...sorry you didn't see it before you posted.

I think insight CAN be helpful with addiction, but you are right - anything that really messes with the dopamine/reward center of the brain is going to cause some problems - and substances seem especially problematic.

For what it's worth, my use of drugs dropped off dramatically after my insight experience. But then, I was probably not 'addicted' in the proper sense. Ditching smoking is MUCH more difficult.

Chet

[ghop]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Gambling is not a physical addiction

Really? Ever been around someone with a gambling addiction when
they were tempted to gamble? Their hands get sweaty and start
twitching, their eyes look like they just took a hit of meth, their
heart starts racing and their blood pressure rises...ALL addiction
is physical because it has its home in the body. It's psychological
too, but one can't deny that it is also physical. Mind and body are
one, remember? Anyway, I appologize if I misunderstood you and
jumped too soon. You're a mentor of mine even when you're
misunderstood. :wink:

gassho

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

I mean, I think gambling is stupid. It does not attract me at all. I do not have to be vigilant to avoid gambling because the desire to gamble does not arise within me. If I was a gambler, and the desire did arise within me, would total and complete insight not break the desire?

I'm going to have to say NO. Addiction is beyond our control. It isn't a matter of insight. It simply NEVER goes away.
We learn to live with it, like the death of someone we love. We can go on without them but never bring them back.
It's really all a matter of understanding ourselves. Also of having compassion for others...WHERE THEY ARE. I may
ask myself, "Who is it that is wanting to drink?" And I can get some relief from that, but it doesn't make the desire
go away. Maybe we should focus less on always having to be right and have the last word and instead try to understand
those people who suffer from things we obviously can't understand. That is, I think, what this path is all about.
Please don't think that addiction has anything to do with inertia. That really just pisses me off.

gassho.

I thought I was being pretty clear about setting aside physical addictions.

Gambling is not a physical addiction, it is a psychological one - as opposed to drinking or drugs.

You know what though? Gambling is more along the lines of a physical addiction because of the dopamine/reward center involvement. So my example was probably bad.

I'm talking more about things like bad sexual behavior, or my own BPD, or a tendency toward putting off zazen in favor of video games..etc.

Chet

[ghop]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

I mean, I think gambling is stupid. It does not attract me at all. I do not have to be vigilant to avoid gambling because the desire to gamble does not arise within me. If I was a gambler, and the desire did arise within me, would total and complete insight not break the desire?

I'm going to have to say NO. Addiction is beyond our control. It isn't a matter of insight. It simply NEVER goes away.
We learn to live with it, like the death of someone we love. We can go on without them but never bring them back.
It's really all a matter of understanding ourselves. Also of having compassion for others...WHERE THEY ARE. I may
ask myself, "Who is it that is wanting to drink?" And I can get some relief from that, but it doesn't make the desire
go away. Maybe we should focus less on always having to be right and have the last word and instead try to understand
those people who suffer from things we obviously can't understand. That is, I think, what this path is all about.
Please don't think that addiction has anything to do with inertia. That really just pisses me off.

gassho.

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

The stories of the rope and frog both illustrate to me the very point of vigilance.
As does Buddha realizing the underlying (overlaying) reality and dropping all fear, anger, etc ...

Oh? You acknowledge that vigilance against misunderstanding is necessary? Then I guess we agree more than we disagree.

But if you really, deeply, truly dissolve the drives beneath 'bad' behavior, except for occasional urges due to inertia, why would unskillful urges persist (aside from physical addiction, of course)?

I mean, I think gambling is stupid. It does not attract me at all. I do not have to be vigilant to avoid gambling because the desire to gamble does not arise within me. If I was a gambler, and the desire did arise within me, would total and complete insight not break the desire?

Things like this have been reported to happen all the time - desires that plagued a person suddenly disappear in light of a radical adjustment of their view. I can't think of any more radical adjustment of view than awakening.

Once again, I understand that persistent urges will persist (did you see what I did there?) due to pattern, inertia, and the fact that there are always cracks in the psyche that don't get light...but I mean that in general, a lot of harmful or unskillful behavior may begin to disappear with more (and more frequent/constant) insight into how reality actually works.

And then we can save the big guns of vigilance and determination for the unskillful urges that are resistant to insight.

Chet

[AlanLa]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

I think there are two issues contained in "expressing bad." One is how we treat ourselves, and the other is how we treat those around us. As for how we treat ourselves, I think the key is to be aware of both how we are feeling about something and how that feeling may be affecting us. For example, feeling anger is one thing, feeling anger to the point that I see red and get out of balance is something else. So maybe it's a matter of degree; if I feel anger toward someone but can let it go, that's great; but if I feel anger to the point I can't let it go, then I need to express it somehow. Now this does not necessarily mean I have to express it to the person that made me angry. Here is where I think skillful means comes in. First of all, getting my anger out by punching a wall is better than getting my anger out by punching the person. There are lots of other ways of expressing anger: write about it, make art expressing it, primal scream techniques, working out to burn off the energy, etc. I think these are all skillful means of treating your feelings, and I think treating yourself needs to come first. Be honest about how you are feeling and then deal with your feelings.

As for treating others, to continue with my anger example above, if someone is really pissing your off it may be entirely appropriate to let that person know they are pissing you off, but the skillful means issue is are you trying to help that person in some way or just treating your own anger in a negative way? So, it may be perfectly fine to say "YOU'RE REALLY PISSING ME OFF WHEN YOU ...." and then explain what it is they are doing that is pissing you off. It can be very helpful to the person to know how they are affecting you, thus giving them an opportunity to change their behavior. However, unskillful means is more like "YOU STUPID M*&^%ER F@#%&ER GFY" etc. This is not helpful to the other person, and I contend not necessary for the angry person to say to that other person. Reacting in this fire out of control manner, to use Jundo's analogy, is not treating yourself or the other person well.

So, to summarize I would say that you first need to be aware of and accept your negative feelings, and if they need to be expressed, then finding a way to express those negative feelings in ways that are helpful (skillful means) to both yourself and others can definitely have benefits. I am sure the flesh and blood Buddha (as opposed to the mythically perfect One) knew this and acted accordingly with himself and others, and since we are also buddha then we can learn how to do it also. I believe it's part of our Path to do so.

I hope this makes sense. It's clearer in my head than it appears on the page. My profession is being a counselor and counselor educator, so I am really really used to dealing with people's negative feelings without getting personally caught up in them. Part of the way I don't get caught up in them is by learning to express them in ways that are skillful and not reckless. So I have no problem telling someone how negatively I feel about their behavior, but I often take the time to do so in a skillful way. (Heading off a potential objection here) I don't believe at all that this makes me any less authentic or honest. Actually, I think I could make the argument that understanding my negative feelings and finding healthy ways of expressing them makes me more authentic because of the deeper understanding and aware approach I take to expression.

AL

PS: Bringing this issue to the recent situation with Chet that got me to start this thread, believe me, if Chet pissed me off I would have no problem telling him so, but he doesn't so I don't. However, I do quite honestly tell him when I disapprove of his behavior. I manage those situations as skillfully as I can, and sometimes that's not very helpful, so I keep learning and making the effort to be/do better for both our sakes. It is an imperfect process between imperfect people, so we muddle through as best we can, always aspiring to be/do better.

PPS: Assuming Chugai is in a 12-step program, one of the great benefits of such programs is the constant vigilance he talks about. People on the successful recovery road are able to recognize and deal with their feeling in healthy ways. I think people in that program would agree that it is totally possible to be authentic about how they feel yet treat those feelings in helpful (interpersonal) rather than harmful (substance abusing) ways. I've tried to describe my non-12-step perspective on that, at least in part, above. Frankly, we could all learn a lot from such programs even if we don't have a substance addiction.

OK, gotta go to work now.

[ghop]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

The only people who are perfectly moral are also perfectly dead.

I agree. And what a relief it was when I realized this. I was raised in a pretty thick religious climate. All our heroes were spottless. All our ideals were sinless. It really made life seem like a contest rather than a gift. It was unrealistic. Then I realized that maybe, just maybe, the only people who ever got any better were the ones who quit trying. Sounds kinda backwards but I think it's true. I don't think of the Precepts as a ladder but as a sidewalk. You're not "moving up" you're just "moving forward." It's all about choices. Everyday were given choices to make, and they all basically come down to this, choosing Life or choosing Death. Sounds drastic doesn't it. But every single day I have to choose NOT to drink alcohol. Doesn't matter how long I go without it. Every day alcohol becomes real and asks me if I would like to come back to it. And by saying no I am saying yes to Life. Doesn't make me better than anyone. My wife can have a margarita when we go out for Mexican. But that's the point. She can have ONE. Me, it's like what's the point of one? Let's get bombed! And that's a problem. Some people are addicted to ideas. Some people are addicted to always having to be right. Either way we are all given two choices each day, all day long...Life or Death. Choose Life. Buddha did. I don't believe in a perfect Buddha. But the Way itself, well that's perfect. Our life is to be a reaching towards but never a having. We travel but never arrive. We sit but have no goal.

gassho

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Sorry, that is my answer for them all -- obsessive thoughts, compulsive behavior, anger, etc ... I'm a dope fiend that has been clean for 24 years so it is not conjecture on my part ... I maintain a constant vigil and an ongoing moral inventory ... as for Buddha I thought you were just being rhetorical ... did he try to control his behavior? I think yes; he did not react to temptation nor fear through conscious decision making.

That's an interesting perspective, but I disagree. Remember the parable of the rope?

"There is an old Buddhist parable that tells of a man walking home one evening. In the half-light he sees on the path a snake apparently crossing in front of him. He starts and jerks himself away, heart beating fast, wide-eyed and alert. Peering closely he suddenly realises that he was mistaken, in fact it is an old piece of rope! Relieved and laughing to himself at his foolishness he goes to step over it and glancing down suddenly realises the rope is a string of jewels. He gasps in awe!"

Also, from 'Buddhism Is Not What You Think':

"There’s a Zen story about a student who made a special point of keeping all the Buddhist precepts. Once, however, while walking at night, he stepped on something that made a squishing sound. He imagined that he must have stepped on an egg-bearing frog. Immediately he was filled with fear and regret, for the precepts include not killing. When he went to sleep that night he dreamed that hundreds of frogs came to him, demanding his life in exchange.

When morning came, he went back to the place the incident had occurred and found that he had stepped on an overripe eggplant. Suddenly his confusion stopped."

Insight and effort are both needed.

The Buddha did not simply fight his fear, greed, and delusion - he had no fear because he understood the underlying nature of reality.

If you try to be vigilant against all threats to your morality, you have more in common with the Buddhas made of stone than Buddhas made of flesh. It's true that you may resist many problems with such rigidity, but you will also choke off a lot of the living blood of life.

The only people who are perfectly moral are also perfectly dead.

This is just my perspective, of course. I believe you are very right regarding your attitude toward you addiction, as proven by your long period of abstinence ...I just don't think all situations are the same.

Chet

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

How does that work in my life?

Maintaining a constant vigilance and a ongoing moral inventory.

One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain. Dhammapada 160

Great! How does that work in your life, though?

Also, that scripture seems to be referencing the fact that one should not seek for outside aid from deities.

And I wouldn't be surprised if 'controlled' could also be translated as 'tamed' - which changes the reading a little bit, wouldn't you agree?

'Control' seems to indicate a ruthlessness that 'tamed' does not, at least in my mind. Also, how would you fit Chod into that scripture if read with a suppressive bent? Does the seeming incompatibility of that scripture with Chod argue that Chod is misguided or that the translation, besides being out of context, is perhaps translated a little unskillfully?

Most importantly here, I think there's a time for a hard approach and a time for a soft one. A momentary hard approach may work if, say, your friend's beautiful wife makes a drunken pass at you when your buddy's away. Determination in the face of this solitary event would certainly seem to be warranted, and the one moment of resistance would be karmically well-rewarded.

But how would such steeley reserve stand up against, say, repeated sexually obsessive thoughts about your friend's wife on your own part? Or feelings of jealousy? Or a drinking problem?

I think that there are times when being harsh with your unskillful thoughts works best and times where you have to truly meet the demon, converse with it, and possibly suffer setbacks over a long journey of understanding before you dissolve the problem at its root.

Or maybe I lack willpower - and yet, there must be a way to practice morality even for those of us who lack such traits, no?

How did Siddhartha defeat the demons while sitting beneath the Bodhi Tree? Did he attempt to 'control' them?

Chet

You answered the first question but noticeably ignored the other ones. Why?

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

What a glorious thread this is!

I believe this is a topic that each of us must wrestle with . One set of views may not fit all people ...

Here are my own 'rules of thumb'.

I believe that the Precepts generally guide us away from anger, greed, jealousy and other such emotions. As anyone who has ever had a moment (or days on end) flooded by those emotions can testify ... they generally do not lead to the peace and balance which is at the heart of this practice. Others get hurt, we get hurt, holes get punched in walls, plates get broken and life gets broken. These emotions are fire, and we must be careful how we play with it.

On the other hand, to fully remove these emotions from the human mind ... including potentially harmful emotions such as anger ... would rob of us of an important part of being human. We would be reduced to living in a way as emotionally numb and dull as a piece of cold wood or a stone. Some schools of Buddhism (and some other Eastern and Western religions too) have sought to completely kill or squelch such emotions within us (sometimes many other human emotions too). This has traditionally been described as pouring water on the fire until coals become completely wet and cool, and the fire is completely out.

When Buddhism came to China, Korea, Tibet and Japan ... the Buddhist teachings on the emotions subtly changed (I paint with a broad brush, but I speak as a general trend). The fires of emotions were not seen as necessarily negative things, but they must be handled carefully and with balance. A campfire, so useful for cooking our supper if skillfully made, will quickly burn down the woods if left untended. A single candle can burn us and others, and the whole house down, if handled wrong. So it is with our emotions. Thus I say that the Precepts guide us away from excess and uncontrolled anger, greed, jealousy ... Anger at injustices in the world, for example, may spur us on to fight for change ... yet that anger should be kept in balance, and tempered with an equal dose of acceptance of life, lest it burns us to ashes too. The desire for change should not be allowed to run rampant as greed for and attachment to change from 'how things are'. A healthy dose of competition need not become jealousy and violence. We should use strong words much as we would scold a 3 year old child found playing with matches ... that is, with love and concern and understanding, not simply to hurt the child. A harsh word can be an "intervention" to shake a friend up who needs to hear ... or it can simply be a cruel and destructive word meant to hurt someone (the most famous example of "Zen tough love" may be all those old tough talking Masters administering "40 blows" of Wisdom). Thus, do not extinguish life fires ... but handle them with care and use them in constructive ways!

What is more, we must all recognize that we have these fires burning within us, and we must be mindful of that fact. I tend to believe that we all have the potential for the best and worst of human behavior within us, given the right ... or wrong ... conditions. We each have a little bit of Hitler or Osama, the murderer or the thief or rapist, within us (Kannon and Mother Theresa too). Under given conditions, the fire within any of us can run wild, and we could do truly heinous things when pressed. We must be very careful, for fire is a powerful thing.

I do not know if there are or are not firey hells after we leave this earthly world ... but I have seen enough people who make hells for themself, and those around them, in this very life by their thoughts, words and deeds.

I believe that the Precepts guide us toward generally healthful and helpful ways of using fire. I believe that Zazen and all Buddhist Practice ... with its emphasis on understanding the "mind theatre", not being ensnared by it, learning to let thoughts and emotions go, learning to embrace life and find balance ... make our living by the Precepts easier and easier. As the days and years of Practice pass, we do become much better fire handlers!

I also believe that, in the early days of Buddhist practice, we may not yet be good at keeping with the Precepts, so we may just have to "cold turkey" it! We may then have to do our best to grit our teeth, bite our tongue, and not yield to anger ... simply not letting the harsh words pass our lips. In that case, the Buddha's Precepts really are more like the "rules" that a parent sets for a child ... and insists that the child abide though the child does not like it or understand ... all until the child matures and learns to live by the Precepts herself. The children (us) must be forced as a "law" to not play with matches ... until the child grows up and is old enough to understand their use.

I believe that there is a difference between angry thoughts, angry words and angry actions. Thus, if you think ugly thoughts (I do not know of any human being, short of a Buddha, who will not think ugly things sometimes ... like yesterday when someone dumped trash in the farmfield behind our house), simply do as you can not to let them pass your lips. If ugly words pass your lips (again, I think it hard to be a human being and escape that ... as my wife can testify when we have our semi-annual husband-wife barn burner) ... do not act upon the angry and harmful impulses. All should be avoided, but thinking "I want to burn down your house" is not quite saying out loud "I want to burn your house" ... each far removed from actually pouring gasoline on the house and lighting it!

What is more ... we are not machines. We will all slip (although, hopefully, not doing too much damage in the process. I have never killed anyone ... Thank Buddha! ... let alone broken anyone's jaw ... but I do have a lovely dent in the wall that I made about 5 years ago in a moment of unbridled fire. I intentionally never fix it ... and even cut it out and brought it with me when we moved ... as a reminder of what I am capable of.) That is what it means to be human ... a creature made, in traditional Buddhist understanding, partly of the fire element!

If we fall into the fire we should simply pull ourself out, dust off, learn from the experience ... forgive what can be forgiven in our actions, sincerely apologize to whom we should ... move on and try not to fall into the flames again.

It is for these reasons that we recite again and again and again ... the Verse of Atonement ... the Verse of At-One-Ment ...

All evil karma ever committed by me since of old,

On account of my beginningless greed, anger and ignorance,

Born of my body, speech, and thought,

Now I atone for it all.

Gassho, J