Benefits of being Bad?

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

This makes me think about the difference between guilt and shame. In moments of guilt, one thinks, "I don't want to be the kind of person who does something like that." In moments of shame, one thinks, "I don't want other people to see me as being the kind of person who does something like that." Of course that's an oversimplification--and guilt often comes without awareness of "what kind of person I am," sometimes it's just feeling bad about doing something that harmed someone else.

But I make this theoretical distinction because I think it illustrates where I see a lot of people getting stuck on the Buddhist path, and a place I was stuck for a long time as well... being overly concerned about 'being good' in the eyes of others. We might not admit it to ourselves, but often our efforts and frustrations have to do not with pure concern over the behavior / action / event itself, but in how that affects others' perception of us. We don't want to be judged, we don't want other people angry at us, we don't want "to be mean." We want to be better friends, better partners, better people. We think endlessly of how we can become more humble and patient and kind with a secret hope that it will make others like us, love us, even tolerate us more.

But all of that is delusion.

What Zen practice has helped me do is to drop the concern of what others think about me or how they react to me. I've learned throughout my life that even if you're going above and beyond there is still someone who will fault you. And often the right thing to do is not the thing that is going to make others like us or make things more comfortable or pleasant.

Being afraid of confrontation does not make you a good person, but many people want to dress up this weakness as a virtue. On the other hand, it is a virtue to not be afraid of confrontation but to act in a way so as to avoid it, or to find a way to make it less divisive, because one knows that escalating conflicts almost inevitably leads to some sort of hurt or harm.

Passive aggression is a clear sign that someone lacks true equanimity but is afraid of conflict or afraid of other people seeing them act angry or aggressive. Through passive aggression, a person finds a way to instigate others so that other people act out the anger he or she is afraid to act out or own him or herself. The aggression is still there, it's just been trumped by cowardice and/or shame.

It's a burden to go around trying really hard to be good. As the Buddha taught, this like all other primary delusions is rooted in the concept of a self, a graspable entity that can either be 'good' or 'bad.' Letting go of perfectionism and 'goody goody-ness' has been the cause of a tremendous sense of freedom and release in my life and practice. It hasn't made me suddenly start 'being bad,' it just means I'm more likely to respond to situations fluidly, instead of consulting my inner image of 'what kind of person I'm supposed to be' to dictate my (necessarily fake) response.

[Rich]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

How did Siddhartha defeat the demons while sitting beneath the Bodhi Tree? Did he attempt to 'control' them?

Chet

I don't think he defeated them. He just put up his Vulcan Mind Shield and out of mutual respect they both coexisted. There is something to control but I don't know what it is. :roll: I just keep coming back to the same old shit..I mean the same old wonderful healthy life I have at lease for now. :wink:

/Rich

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain. Dhammapada 160

Great! How does that work in your life, though?

Also, that scripture seems to be referencing the fact that one should not seek for outside aid from deities.

And I wouldn't be surprised if 'controlled' could also be translated as 'tamed' - which changes the reading a little bit, wouldn't you agree?

'Control' seems to indicate a ruthlessness that 'tamed' does not, at least in my mind. Also, how would you fit Chod into that scripture if read with a suppressive bent? Does the seeming incompatibility of that scripture with Chod argue that Chod is misguided or that the translation, besides being out of context, is perhaps translated a little unskillfully?

Most importantly here, I think there's a time for a hard approach and a time for a soft one. A momentary hard approach may work if, say, your friend's beautiful wife makes a drunken pass at you when your buddy's away. Determination in the face of this solitary event would certainly seem to be warranted, and the one moment of resistance would be karmically well-rewarded.

But how would such steeley reserve stand up against, say, repeated sexually obsessive thoughts about your friend's wife on your own part? Or feelings of jealousy? Or a drinking problem?

I think that there are times when being harsh with your unskillful thoughts works best and times where you have to truly meet the demon, converse with it, and possibly suffer setbacks over a long journey of understanding before you dissolve the problem at its root.

Or maybe I lack willpower - and yet, there must be a way to practice morality even for those of us who lack such traits, no?

How did Siddhartha defeat the demons while sitting beneath the Bodhi Tree? Did he attempt to 'control' them?

Chet

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Phillip,

I see where you're coming from and even partially agree. The problem comes from self-editing or pretending that we're farther along than we are. If you hide from your teacher, how can he or she help you? Also, how do you prevent 'bad' drives from going underground and causing problems?

So yeah, endeavor to express the good, but be as honest as possible about where you ARE stuck and be honest about how you REALLY feel.

In my experience, the Byron Katie stuff works really well here because you do express your true feelings on paper (judge your neighbor) and THEN inquire as to whether those feelings are based on things you actually know or CAN know. That way, they can be refuted in a way that often allows them to drop without suppressing them.

In my opinion, sometimes endeavoring to be a great Buddhist will prevent you from expressing Buddha. We are where we are, and I think we should acknowledge that to ourselves without trying to completely press ourselves into some misbegotten concept of perfect Buddhist behavior.

Chet

[anista]

Re: Benefits of expressing Bad?

I completely and totally agree that it is not about banishing or disowning our demons. Better is to accept and maybe tame them (this reminds me of that Chod thread). But do we need to express those demons to others as a means of accepting and taming them? Can there be benefits to that for people, both those on the giving and receiving end of those bad, selfish, inconsiderate expressions? How might this balance us/others?

To follow the Buddha-way is to act out of compassion. Everything could be seen this way.

To express those demons is not to follow the path of compassion, but rather, so satisfy one's own need.

Where does this selfishness and those inconsiderations come from?

To me, is has helped tremendously by changing the way I act. By changing the physical side, I started transforming my mental patterns, without suppressing or acting out on the negative sides of that which I call "me". I used to be inconsiderate, aggressive, and violent. Very, very much so. Today, I'm not. I think that that is one of the reason Buddha laid forth the path for us to follow, because it does lead us to a better place. The idea of Karma-Vip?ka stipulates this: by acting in a "good" way (i.e. out of compassion) this will lead to positive reactions and consequences. By deliberately acting out on negative impulses, one will face negative consequences.

In my experience.

/Philip

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

I genuinely feel for people who are going through what you go through, Dosho. I've been there and occasionally am still feeling what you describe.

I need to be more concerned about what others think now, but I think you may need to go in the other direction, LOL! I rarely let people see how they affect me - but I might be just as concerned about rejection as you are. I just suck at presenting a 'good' face because of my lack of emotional control..so maybe I compensate by denigrating those that do. Part of me is jealous of the control that you have - the ability to edit my image for the sake of group acceptance would be a valuable egoic tool, but since I suck so badly at it, I denigrate its value. This is something I need to work on, and if for no other reason, your presence is valuable to me.

Chet

[AlanLa]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Dosho, can you control how others perceive you? NO.
Do you let the perceptions of others control you? Of course, but this is conditioning and you already know this. Moving on...
Can you control how you behave in this world? Certainly to some extent, but you are sooooo conditioned (as am I and everyone else here to some extent).
What does this leave you? I think all that's left to you is how you ACT in the here and now.
How you ACT is all you can control. At some point you need the FAITH to just throw those ACTIONS out there in an honest and authentic way and let them BE.
If those actions go way out of whack, like Chet sometimes tends to do, then let HIM be your teacher in how to rein that in.
There is a balance in all this. Truly. But it is a journey, not an outcome. Just keep going!!!!!!!!

[Dosho]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Does putting yourself out there automatically lead to you being an asshole? There is the possibility of you putting yourself out there, expressing that negativity, in such a way that is honest and authentic to YOU but does not necessarily mean you are being an asshole, a middle way, so to speak. So being "more of an asshole" may be correct, but giving more of yourself does not mean you become an asshole. Measured responses can be both authentic and respectful, or so I believe. From what I know of you here, Dosho, I doubt you can be an asshole; on the other hand, moving in that direction a bit might be a good thing. Maybe; you need to be the judge of your own life.

No, it doesn't mean that automatically and maybe it is time I became the sole judge of my life. Instead of worrying so much about how I appear, I need to accept that I have no control whatsoever on how I am perceived. And that leaves me with only one way to go...a path that is clear, so to speak...to say what I really feel and leave it there. That doesn't mean I never apologize or regret something I've said, but it does mean not allowing it to affect my sense of self worth in the process.

Thank you Alan.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Dosho]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Hey Chet,

It doesn't mean it's not okay either.

I would never say there is a clear line of when it's ok to call someone an asshole and when it's not, so of course there could be occasions for the use of such language. I was just saying that someone who cares enough to reply to your posts generally deserves better than to have their post called "bullshit". But that's your call and your right.

One of the things I'm most worried about is being ejected from this Sangha. I'm constantly afraid the boot is coming. Except for a few very strong personal relationships, I've been booted from most close relationships I've been in. In my late twenties, I learned why emotional self-regulation is so hard for me. At that point, I had to start taking responsibility for my problem, because it IS my problem. It isn't everybody else.

While I may be a bit "goody-goody", I would never say using phrases like "bullshit" and "asshole" are worthy of kicking you out. I'll be honest...you can get my emotions really steaming, but nothing you've said here at Treeleaf makes me think, "Boy, I wish Jundo would ban this guy." That would be a bit hypocrticial of me, don't you think? As if I'm perfect! So, if it's an issue of you pushing any of us away before we reject you I can't really stop that...but otherwise, I'd say you're stuck with us for the duration.

I just ask this: Please don't judge my effort or desire to be better merely on my admittedly poor results. Every year, I am getting better at this, but I began at a much worse place. I would cut myself, romantic relationships were short and full of fighting, suicide threats were not uncommon. I would totally cut off otherwise close personal friendships for days or weeks based on trivial slights.

I have never doubted your efforts to better yourself by being here at Treeleaf...not for a second. If I thought otherwise, I wouldn't be sitting here typing this. We all have our issues and while yours may be out in the open a bit more than mine, that's probably better than keeping it bottled up, right? Like I said, you're stuck with us...like it or not.

Gassho,
Dosho

[AlanLa]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Dosho wrote:

I hold much of myself back and think, "Man, I don't want to come off as an asshole." So, does that mean I should be more of an asshole?

Does putting yourself out there automatically lead to you being an asshole? There is the possibility of you putting yourself out there, expressing that negativity, in such a way that is honest and authentic to YOU but does not necessarily mean you are being an asshole, a middle way, so to speak. So being "more of an asshole" may be correct, but giving more of yourself does not mean you become an asshole. Measured responses can be both authentic and respectful, or so I believe. From what I know of you here, Dosho, I doubt you can be an asshole; on the other hand, moving in that direction a bit might be a good thing. Maybe; you need to be the judge of your own life.

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

I like how Chet put it, making space for it. This way you realize that trying to deny the emotions or thought that are "bad" is really denying a part of your self. Like denying your left arm. It is a part of what makes you human, and we shouldn't push that away. This, however, does not mean that we simply run with it and be what ever we feel like being. We acknowledge it, understand it, walk over and shake it's hand, "Hello, selfishness, how have you been?" We simply do not allow it to control us. That is being controlled by delusion.

[AlanLa]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Now, as for authenticity - it's not so much the acting that's necessary, but the owning.

Yup! We agree lots, Chet.

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

It doesn't mean it's not okay either.

Say what you want about me - I suck at self-editing. To a lot of people, it looks like I'm not trying - but I actually AM trying most of the time.

One of the things I'm most worried about is being ejected from this Sangha. I'm constantly afraid the boot is coming. Except for a few very strong personal relationships, I've been booted from most close relationships I've been in. In my late twenties, I learned why emotional self-regulation is so hard for me. At that point, I had to start taking responsibility for my problem, because it IS my problem. It isn't everybody else.

I just ask this: Please don't judge my effort or desire to be better merely on my admittedly poor results. Every year, I am getting better at this, but I began at a much worse place. I would cut myself, romantic relationships were short and full of fighting, suicide threats were not uncommon. I would totally cut off otherwise close personal friendships for days or weeks based on trivial slights.

Now that I know what I'm dealing with - I still can rarely talk myself down from am inappropriate 9/10 emotional response, but I DO more quickly try to take responsibility for just where the problem is amd I make amends where possible.

Now, as for authenticity - it's not so much the acting that's necessary, but the owning.

Sometimes I see what looks like passive aggressive behavior from the 'good guys' - and the passive aggressive action seeks to damage in the way an aggressive one does, but it much more easily allows rationalization.

My worst behavior here cannot be rationalized away. I have to look at it, own it, and try to address it. Passive aggressive or resentful behavior lives 'underground' for a long time and allows us to disavow our negativity - and therefore never really change it.

Chet

[Dosho]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Hi all,

I'm glad Alan started this thread as I was thinking about similar issues after Chet's original one. I often think about what "being bad" means as I do a lot of self editing with other people, both in written form and in person. I hold much of myself back and think, "Man, I don't want to come off as an asshole." So, does that mean I should be more of an asshole? Honestly I don't think so, although there is something to be said for just letting it all hang out. But just because you have impulses that you find hard to control, that doesn't mean it's ok to refer to someone's speech as "bullshit". That's just disrespectful, IMHO.

BTW, I didn't edit any of that...how'd I do?

Gassho,
Dosho

[AlanLa]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

I agree with authenticity. Good word, good thing. I used the word honest in my original post to mean the same thing. Rewriting it would say "I think I'll just keep going the way I have been as authentically as I can."