Benefits of being Bad?

[AlanLa]

In another thread, Chet recommended that I express my bad, selfish, and inconsiderate self a little more, saying

Having better balance between these traits can be beneficial for both individuals and group-tenders,

I think this is a very fair and interesting issue, so I throw it out to the group. Can sharing your bad, selfish, and inconsiderate self have its benefits? Chet, feel free to elaborate on this.

Here are my thoughts. I certainly see the appeal here, and that there might be some benefits to being more honest about negative feelings and not holding them back. Getting the negative off your chest can definitely be cathartic. I've slept on this and been thinking about it all morning. Being bad, selfish, and inconsiderate has never worked very well for me, nor does it ever really feel good for me. All I associate with those negativities is suffering, and learning to let go of them has led to a lessening of my suffering. Do I sometimes feel like acting those ways? Sure, and when I become aware of it I usually let it drop because I see no benefits to me or others in continuing on with those feelings. I try to accept those feelings, not deny them, because they are real in me sometimes. But acting on them would be in violation of the precepts the way I understand them. Also, Bassui has a real hold on me lately, and he wrote that our True Nature is Kannon, which is just the opposite of being bad, selfish, or inconsiderate, and the farther I go on the Path the more I find this to be true. So I think I'll just keep going the way I have been as honestly as I can. But that's just me.

What about you folks?

[disastermouse]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

In another thread, Chet recommended that I express my bad, selfish, and inconsiderate self a little more, saying

Having better balance between these traits can be beneficial for both individuals and group-tenders,

I think this is a very fair and interesting issue, so I throw it out to the group. Can sharing your bad, selfish, and inconsiderate self have its benefits? Chet, feel free to elaborate on this.

Here are my thoughts. I certainly see the appeal here, and that there might be some benefits to being more honest about negative feelings and not holding them back. Getting the negative off your chest can definitely be cathartic. I've slept on this and been thinking about it all morning. Being bad, selfish, and inconsiderate has never worked very well for me, nor does it ever really feel good for me. All I associate with those negativities is suffering, and learning to let go of them has led to a lessening of my suffering. Do I sometimes feel like acting those ways? Sure, and when I become aware of it I usually let it drop because I see no benefits to me or others in continuing on with those feelings. I try to accept those feelings, not deny them, because they are real in me sometimes. But acting on them would be in violation of the precepts the way I understand them. Also, Bassui has a real hold on me lately, and he wrote that our True Nature is Kannon, which is just the opposite of being bad, selfish, or inconsiderate, and the farther I go on the Path the more I find this to be true. So I think I'll just keep going the way I have been as honestly as I can. But that's just me.

What about you folks?

It's not so much about being bad - it's about making a space for it - being forgiving in yourself of it. If we try to banish our 'bad' thoughts and whatnot - it turns into a shadow that can itself be rather problematic, IMHO.

In my experience, trying to 'be a good Buddhist' doesn't work from sheer effort. I do believe I am becoming better at keeping the precepts, recent outbursts/breakdowns excepted, but not due to self-censorship - not even for the 'good of the group' or 'to benefit sentient beings'. Behavior that truly breaks the precepts comes from misconception and bad patterns. It may take some effort to break the patterns, but we shouldn't disown our 'demons'. When we do that, they just go nuts behind the scenes, IMHE (in my humble experience).

So, how do we tackle 'bad' urges without banishing them or disowning them? This isn't a new idea by any stretch of the imagination. My old shrink actually had a book about it called Romancing Your Shadow.

Chet

[Risho]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

"This kind of teaching does not mean to have control over your desires. If you want to control your desires, you will struggle with how much to limit your desires or your food, and in that way you will make more problems, one after another. You may even find some good excuse to have more food." Not Always So p 22-23

I like that idea of giving space and changing patterns. My wife and I were discussing fad dieys as we recently started exercising and eating better. These fad diets have you eating unrealistically to "show" some result to sate your ego. Just like The mistaken idea of being a buddhist means you have to all of a sudden be perfect. But the key I think is what Chet said.

Let it be and dont try to be perfect. Change your patterns naturally and come into balance. Taking the food example, enjoying food is part of being human but enjoyimg pizza and being attached to it are very different as the latter will cause weight gain. Just like subtly changing our patterns of anger etc is probably better than sticking to a right wrong attitude where we inevitably sabotage ourselves when we do not live up to this false belief we've created for ourselves

[AlanLa]

Re: Benefits of expressing Bad?

I completely and totally agree that it is not about banishing or disowning our demons. Better is to accept and maybe tame them (this reminds me of that Chod thread). But do we need to express those demons to others as a means of accepting and taming them? Can there be benefits to that for people, both those on the giving and receiving end of those bad, selfish, inconsiderate expressions? How might this balance us/others?

It tends to throw me off balance to do that, but there are times when if something bugs me enough it gets me off balance and I need to get it out in order to regain my balance, but this is rare, more rare all the time as I grow older and make my way further down the Path.

I changed the title of the thread to focus on that expression aspect, not the being aspect.

[disastermouse]

Re: Benefits of expressing Bad?

I completely and totally agree that it is not about banishing or disowning our demons. Better is to accept and maybe tame them (this reminds me of that Chod thread). But do we need to express those demons to others as a means of accepting and taming them? Can there be benefits to that for people, both those on the giving and receiving end of those bad, selfish, inconsiderate expressions? How might this balance us/others?

It tends to throw me off balance to do that, but there are times when if something bugs me enough it gets me off balance and I need to get it out in order to regain my balance, but this is rare, more rare all the time as I grow older and make my way further down the Path.

I changed the title of the thread to focus on that expression aspect, not the being aspect.

It's a matter of authenticity.

Chet

[AlanLa]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

I agree with authenticity. Good word, good thing. I used the word honest in my original post to mean the same thing. Rewriting it would say "I think I'll just keep going the way I have been as authentically as I can."

[Dosho]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Hi all,

I'm glad Alan started this thread as I was thinking about similar issues after Chet's original one. I often think about what "being bad" means as I do a lot of self editing with other people, both in written form and in person. I hold much of myself back and think, "Man, I don't want to come off as an asshole." So, does that mean I should be more of an asshole? Honestly I don't think so, although there is something to be said for just letting it all hang out. But just because you have impulses that you find hard to control, that doesn't mean it's ok to refer to someone's speech as "bullshit". That's just disrespectful, IMHO.

BTW, I didn't edit any of that...how'd I do?

Gassho,
Dosho

[disastermouse]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

It doesn't mean it's not okay either.

Say what you want about me - I suck at self-editing. To a lot of people, it looks like I'm not trying - but I actually AM trying most of the time.

One of the things I'm most worried about is being ejected from this Sangha. I'm constantly afraid the boot is coming. Except for a few very strong personal relationships, I've been booted from most close relationships I've been in. In my late twenties, I learned why emotional self-regulation is so hard for me. At that point, I had to start taking responsibility for my problem, because it IS my problem. It isn't everybody else.

I just ask this: Please don't judge my effort or desire to be better merely on my admittedly poor results. Every year, I am getting better at this, but I began at a much worse place. I would cut myself, romantic relationships were short and full of fighting, suicide threats were not uncommon. I would totally cut off otherwise close personal friendships for days or weeks based on trivial slights.

Now that I know what I'm dealing with - I still can rarely talk myself down from am inappropriate 9/10 emotional response, but I DO more quickly try to take responsibility for just where the problem is amd I make amends where possible.

Now, as for authenticity - it's not so much the acting that's necessary, but the owning.

Sometimes I see what looks like passive aggressive behavior from the 'good guys' - and the passive aggressive action seeks to damage in the way an aggressive one does, but it much more easily allows rationalization.

My worst behavior here cannot be rationalized away. I have to look at it, own it, and try to address it. Passive aggressive or resentful behavior lives 'underground' for a long time and allows us to disavow our negativity - and therefore never really change it.

Chet

[AlanLa]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Now, as for authenticity - it's not so much the acting that's necessary, but the owning.

Yup! We agree lots, Chet.

[JohnsonCM]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

I like how Chet put it, making space for it. This way you realize that trying to deny the emotions or thought that are "bad" is really denying a part of your self. Like denying your left arm. It is a part of what makes you human, and we shouldn't push that away. This, however, does not mean that we simply run with it and be what ever we feel like being. We acknowledge it, understand it, walk over and shake it's hand, "Hello, selfishness, how have you been?" We simply do not allow it to control us. That is being controlled by delusion.

[AlanLa]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Dosho wrote:

I hold much of myself back and think, "Man, I don't want to come off as an asshole." So, does that mean I should be more of an asshole?

Does putting yourself out there automatically lead to you being an asshole? There is the possibility of you putting yourself out there, expressing that negativity, in such a way that is honest and authentic to YOU but does not necessarily mean you are being an asshole, a middle way, so to speak. So being "more of an asshole" may be correct, but giving more of yourself does not mean you become an asshole. Measured responses can be both authentic and respectful, or so I believe. From what I know of you here, Dosho, I doubt you can be an asshole; on the other hand, moving in that direction a bit might be a good thing. Maybe; you need to be the judge of your own life.

[Dosho]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Hey Chet,

It doesn't mean it's not okay either.

I would never say there is a clear line of when it's ok to call someone an asshole and when it's not, so of course there could be occasions for the use of such language. I was just saying that someone who cares enough to reply to your posts generally deserves better than to have their post called "bullshit". But that's your call and your right.

One of the things I'm most worried about is being ejected from this Sangha. I'm constantly afraid the boot is coming. Except for a few very strong personal relationships, I've been booted from most close relationships I've been in. In my late twenties, I learned why emotional self-regulation is so hard for me. At that point, I had to start taking responsibility for my problem, because it IS my problem. It isn't everybody else.

While I may be a bit "goody-goody", I would never say using phrases like "bullshit" and "asshole" are worthy of kicking you out. I'll be honest...you can get my emotions really steaming, but nothing you've said here at Treeleaf makes me think, "Boy, I wish Jundo would ban this guy." That would be a bit hypocrticial of me, don't you think? As if I'm perfect! So, if it's an issue of you pushing any of us away before we reject you I can't really stop that...but otherwise, I'd say you're stuck with us for the duration.

I just ask this: Please don't judge my effort or desire to be better merely on my admittedly poor results. Every year, I am getting better at this, but I began at a much worse place. I would cut myself, romantic relationships were short and full of fighting, suicide threats were not uncommon. I would totally cut off otherwise close personal friendships for days or weeks based on trivial slights.

I have never doubted your efforts to better yourself by being here at Treeleaf...not for a second. If I thought otherwise, I wouldn't be sitting here typing this. We all have our issues and while yours may be out in the open a bit more than mine, that's probably better than keeping it bottled up, right? Like I said, you're stuck with us...like it or not.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Dosho]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Does putting yourself out there automatically lead to you being an asshole? There is the possibility of you putting yourself out there, expressing that negativity, in such a way that is honest and authentic to YOU but does not necessarily mean you are being an asshole, a middle way, so to speak. So being "more of an asshole" may be correct, but giving more of yourself does not mean you become an asshole. Measured responses can be both authentic and respectful, or so I believe. From what I know of you here, Dosho, I doubt you can be an asshole; on the other hand, moving in that direction a bit might be a good thing. Maybe; you need to be the judge of your own life.

No, it doesn't mean that automatically and maybe it is time I became the sole judge of my life. Instead of worrying so much about how I appear, I need to accept that I have no control whatsoever on how I am perceived. And that leaves me with only one way to go...a path that is clear, so to speak...to say what I really feel and leave it there. That doesn't mean I never apologize or regret something I've said, but it does mean not allowing it to affect my sense of self worth in the process.

Thank you Alan.

Gassho,
Dosho

[AlanLa]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

Dosho, can you control how others perceive you? NO.
Do you let the perceptions of others control you? Of course, but this is conditioning and you already know this. Moving on...
Can you control how you behave in this world? Certainly to some extent, but you are sooooo conditioned (as am I and everyone else here to some extent).
What does this leave you? I think all that's left to you is how you ACT in the here and now.
How you ACT is all you can control. At some point you need the FAITH to just throw those ACTIONS out there in an honest and authentic way and let them BE.
If those actions go way out of whack, like Chet sometimes tends to do, then let HIM be your teacher in how to rein that in.
There is a balance in all this. Truly. But it is a journey, not an outcome. Just keep going!!!!!!!!

[disastermouse]

Re: Benefits of being Bad?

I genuinely feel for people who are going through what you go through, Dosho. I've been there and occasionally am still feeling what you describe.

I need to be more concerned about what others think now, but I think you may need to go in the other direction, LOL! I rarely let people see how they affect me - but I might be just as concerned about rejection as you are. I just suck at presenting a 'good' face because of my lack of emotional control..so maybe I compensate by denigrating those that do. Part of me is jealous of the control that you have - the ability to edit my image for the sake of group acceptance would be a valuable egoic tool, but since I suck so badly at it, I denigrate its value. This is something I need to work on, and if for no other reason, your presence is valuable to me.

Chet