Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

[Risho]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Chet,

First of all, I hope you don't leave, or if you need a break you come back...

I'm a newb, and sometimes I just try to wrap my head around Zen and just keep a consistent practice. Most of the time, when I read, watch or listen to things I'm just trying to stay above water. I can't really disagree because I don't always know what I've read about. lol

In any case, it slowly seeps into me, and I start to get the gist of things...

The point of all this is that when I read your post, it really p#%#%$# me off. Mainly because I felt it had a condescending tone to it.

But I realized that's because I feel that way about people too; I completely relate to it. Is it right, or correct? Probably not, but I feel that way sometimes.

Then I realized this is the point of a Sangha. We are mirrors for each other. We keep each other straight. We teach each other. Yes, we don't always see eye to eye, and we piss each other off, but we grow from it. The challenge is to express what cannot be expressed.

And your post has helped me grow.

Cyril

[Undo]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

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[Stephanie]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

This whole interaction in this thread is highly frustrating.

I deeply respect you, Chet, as a person of wisdom who has helped me slowly find my way back to the path (an ongoing work in progress), but like any of us, you have flaws, and a couple of them are that you're not the world's best listener and that you're willing to dish out to others strong words that you can't take when they are dished to you.

What kills me is that you, like any of us here, still struggle with life and suffer. In ways that I believe could be alleviated if only you were willing to listen to others. Your posts in this thread elicited quite a reaction out of me because I found them a perfect illustration of a place where you get stuck. And how you don't fucking listen when people offer to guide you out of that place. I think you like being stuck where you're stuck, which means, of course, that's where you'll remain.

You push away the feedback you asked for from others that challenges you. You challenge other people all the time, very strongly, it's one of the things I appreciate about you, but it ain't right that you take your toys and run home when others give you a dose of that same strong medicine you dispense so readily to them.

If you ever want to stop feeling alienated, unable to connect with others, I suggest re-reading this thread with an open mind. Of course you're going to feel a disconnect from others if you insist on looking down at them as if from on high, with pity and dismay.

You're not as different from other people as you think you are. This is true of any of us.

[Silva]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Thanks Stephanie, that was a great post. I can see you writing a book some day

Although I too feel sure that one day Stéphanie will be writing a book, in fact I hope she has already started ,I think that there are quite a few threads in this forum which could be compiled into a book, probably a few volumes. I find quite remarkable the interactions, developments and unfoldings of our different viewpoints and sensitivities. I haven't been a member long but I can already see how Iv'e benefited from the wisdom that comes out of all our doubts and fumbleings, I'm sure it would help others too. Could be worth thinking about one day.

gassho,

Sylvie

[disastermouse]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

This thread was never about looking down on anyone. You have to try really hard to see it that way.

The problem is that although that was so definitely not the way it was intended, it seems like it's the only way it's been received. Which means there's no longer any reason to talk about this with you, Steph.

Good luck on your path, though.



Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

This thread was never about looking down on anyone. You have to try really hard to see it that way.

The problem is that although that was so definitely not the way it was intended, it seems like it's the only way it's been received. Which means there's no longer any reason to talk about this with you, Steph.

Good luck on your path, though.



Chet

Chet,

It seems like some over-reaction on your part, some people misunderstanding what you meant on our part... that's all.

The mind theatre at work.

Let's Skype.

Gassho, Jundo

[disastermouse]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

You push away the feedback you asked for from others that challenges you. You challenge other people all the time, very strongly, it's one of the things I appreciate about you, but it ain't right that you take your toys and run home when others give you a dose of that same strong medicine you dispense so readily to them.

If you ever want to stop feeling alienated, unable to connect with others, I suggest re-reading this thread with an open mind. Of course you're going to feel a disconnect from others if you insist on looking down at them as if from on high, with pity and dismay.

This is what I'm talking about - this is a clear misunderstanding of my original intent. My point isn't that I've got something others don't have - my point is that we all have access to this, but so few of us ever realize it.

I'm not placing myself above anyone - we're all here in the midst of enlightenment - every second is enlightenment. And no one realizes it...it's like having a treasure and not knowing it. My point wasn't that some have that treasure and others don't....my point is that we all have that treasure! That's what makes it difficult to see others not realizing that they have immediate access to this!

As for the hiatus - I just started smoking again and I feel much, much better. Maybe I can try to communicate...but I certainly was in the midst of a huge, multi-day BPD relapse. But that's just the point!!! If someone so marginally functional such as myself has access to this treasure, how much more so for people who do not have the stunning personal flaws that I possess?

My point was never to say, "Ha! I'm so enlightened! Why is everyone else so stupid??" I can barely keep myself functional in the everyday world - every little stress is magnified by the fact that I have no stable sense of who I am with which to combat this stress. A few really bad days blows away all sense of accomplishment that I may have about pretty much everything! The only thing that doesn't disappear entirely during these times is the basic ground of sanity that is the enlightenment of this very moment.

Zen is not self-help. It is not here fundamentally to make us more functional - it's not to create a favorable life situation. Zen is more radical than that. I am a terribly shitty conduit of any sort of advice for basic functionality....but my dysfunction is not caused by the awareness of the perfection of this right here. The perfection of this right here exists regardless of the dysfunction of my life situation.

It's this way for all of us. My life situation is pretty unique and alienating - but it's the same fundamental perfection at the same time! This is why it's unassailable. It is unformed, indestructible - and it's that way specifically because I don't own anything that is not available to every single person in this very moment.

It makes me sad to see that what I was trying to express was botched so entirely. Almost everyone I know outside of my immediate family functions much better than do I....and yet, still so many people fail to realize this perfection - this is what's so sad.

Chet

[Heisoku]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Hi Chet
I was reading this and thought immediately of this thread as I finished. It is a teaching from Zen master Honghzi called All Beings Are Your Ancestors.

Fully appreciate the emptiness of all dharmas.Then all minds are free and all dusts evaporate in the original brilliance shining everywhere. Transforming according to circumstances, meet all beings as your ancestors. Subtly illuminate all conditions, magnanimous beyond all duality. Clear and desireless, the wind in the pines and the moon in the water are content in their elements. Without minds interacting, wind and pines or moon and water do not impede one another. Essentially you exist inside emptiness and have the capacity to respond outwardly without being annoyed, like spring blossoming, like a mirror reflecting all forms. Amid all the noise sponaneously emerge transcendent.

Gassho Nigel

[Jinyu]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Hi everyone!
I won't be long on that because I'm not good at it, but in brief...
I perfectly understand Chet's post! I feel the same way very often including with family members... on the other side, it don't make me better than them ... I just feel it so sad that they don't see what they are doing to themselves or to others. But I also I'm totally conscious that people must think the same thing about me sometimes.
And it is true that sometimes I feel like I should share my "buddhist stuff" with them to help. But that's self-centered and egoist... so let just be aware of what people "give" and lets share just being together without any sense of religion, philosophy, right or wrong.... Just this perfectly imperfect moment...

I particularly like what Taigu beautifully said:

You may investigate the sadness and turn it into a joyful wish; bringing about the Dharma in our life will keep the drama away and has a positive effect on everybody. Bodhisattva work, which is your work, no doubt, can be energetic and positive.

Thanks to you all,
gassho,
Jinyu

[Rich]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Hi everyone!
them ... I just feel it so sad that they don't see what they are doing to themselves or to others.
gassho,
Jinyu

Me too, and you are so right, its the doing that matters.
States of mind just don't do it for me anymore....that's about as obtuse as I can get

It makes me feel sick to see birds covered in oil, that's why I chant for them.
/Rich

[Adam]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Does anyone else ever wander around feeling......bad for people who just will never have a moment of awakening? People who are trapped into thinking that their thoughts are theirs..and that their constructions are real?

I mean...I wander around in that mode far more than half the time too....but what's been seen cannot be unseen.

The natural urge is to share this Dharma - but to what avail? Even those who have sat diligently for years can be miles from it - even as they're soaking in it.

I must be looking at this wrong...

Chet

Hey Chet,

I hope that I am not misunderstanding you, but I feel that I can relate to your post. I am new to the path in a sense that I've been practicing seriously for only a couple years, but I have been interested in Buddhism for some time. At times, I feel like I've found a hidden treasure that unlocks all the secrets about the human condition; and this treasure allows for us to be more in touch with all things around us. When I see those around me that have not experienced this truth, I feel a sense of sadness that they may never find what I have. However, I also feel that each person is doing what he/she can in order to walk down their own path. If asked, I explain my beliefs, but I try to never present it as better than any other view. I DO understand what you mean by feeling a sadness for people that cannot experience this truth, but we cannot point out the path to anyone who is unwilling or unable to walk it. I too am lost in delusion with everyone else, so I turn that sadness into compassion for all those around me; human, animal, and plant alike. I see people attached to all sorts of things (including myself), so this thought makes me intensify my practice that much more. At all times we are awake, but we may not be AWAKE to that fact. :shock: :?: :shock:

Thank you for sharing, Chet. You have been an inspiration to my practice and a valued member to the Treeleaf Sangha!

Gassho,

Adam

[AlanLa]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Chet, your compassion for the relief of others' suffering is admirable, although telling one of those suffering others (namely me) to G.F.Y. shows a need to put more of that compassion into practice. I approve of YOU, Chet, but not your behavior sometimes. It's an important distinction. You are getting better in terms of fewer outbursts like that, but still have miles to travel, as do I.

Anyway, I plead guilty to being unclear and/or obtuse in the post that so riled you, so let me try to be more clear. Here are a few excerpts of what you have written on this thread (emphasis mine).

Does anyone else ever wander around feeling......bad for people who just will never have a moment of awakening? People who are trapped into thinking that their thoughts are theirs..and that their constructions are real?

My point is not that others should be enlightened - it's that I feel for them because they are suffering and they haven't even entered the stream towards figuring out the real heart of the matter.

There is a BIG difference between feeling sorry FOR someone and feeling sorry WITH someone. You know this, Chet. Feeling sorry for someone is not nearly as helpful, or compassionate, as feeling sorry with someone. You know this, Chet. I am SURE you do not want anyone to feel sorry for you in your struggles, your delusions, your dysfunctions, so why should you feel sorry for anyone else in theirs? You know this, Chet. Deep down, or maybe right near the surface, I am sure you know this. I think you knew it in your original post, or else why would you have asked about it in the first place?

You also said this:

This thread was never about looking down on anyone.

IMO, when you feel sorry FOR someone you are looking down on them. Feeling sorry for implies you are okay and they are not okay, which implies a sort of one-up status. Maybe feeling bad "with" people was your original intent all along and you just worded it as "for." It's an important distinction.

[disastermouse]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Don't worry, Al - it really wasn't you - I was in a bit of a meltdown mode...and over-reaction was the order of the day for about three of them. I should have split this place because I KNEW I was reactive.

I think your 'sorry for/with' argument is bullshit - but that has more to do with where I'm coming from and I think your intentions are entirely in the right place. I'm awfully glad you're here because you really push my buttons. Why I think this is a good thing is that we both come from pretty radically different sides of the individuality/community spectrum, I think. Because your sensibilities are so different than mine, as are your values - I tend to see insincerity instead of 'care for the group' - and a part of this is definitely a self-defense mechanism on my part. I've never successfully been part of a close group for very long, and so 'group-tenders' really threaten me. In a way, they are the quickest to point out just why I might not fit in. So...I see mealy-mouthed insincerity where it isn't sometimes...which isn't to say that a reticence toward self-expression isn't a weakness of your perspective - just that I tend to see it in everything that group-tenders do - even in the things they do that are very, very necessary. I'm surprised at just how little I still know about you.

Likewise, I think that my filterless self-expression and lack of suppression of my worst qualities, although they can be damaging - probably rub you the wrong way even when they aren't. I can't speak for you, obviously...but I suspect that sometimes I'm taken for arrogant when I'm not - even though my self-defenses and lack of self-restraint do often cause me to put myself not just apart from the group, but sometimes above it - especially in my disregard for what is valuable in your perspective.

So...I'm going to try harder to see what is valuable about your perspective before I react. I doubt that I'll be very successful for awhile - but please know that I'm trying.

And I offer you an opportunity to 'come out of your shell' a little more and express yourself...even your selfish, 'bad', inconsiderate self a little more. Having better balance between these traits can be beneficial for both individuals and group-tenders, IMHO - and it'll cause us to less frequently project our shadows onto one another.

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Hi Guys,

I just had a nice chat with Chet. He said I could discuss this subject here, because he does all the time ... including on this thread. He has a little condition, all his life (borderline personality disorder) in which his thoughts get very stormy and he reacts to people a bit aggressively, says things, judges situations in ways that may alienate others. He himself sees this later, when the attack passes, although he may not at the time.

I emphasize this especially for new members of the Sangha who may not know Chet ... and also for older members who may forget or not fully understand. Please keep this in mind before reacting to his words. Furthermore, as I told Chet ... his claws are not even that sharp! Compared to 90% of the folks on the internet ... he is a pussycat. (Chet, you are not even 20% as "bad" as you think you are when you are having your attack. Believe me. Perhaps, try to avoid the moments when you feel compelled to say "go fuck yourself" to someone ... although you say the condition makes you feel compelled to do so beyond control). Furthermore, his opinions are wise and highly valued, even if wrapped in a little vinegar sometimes.

Chet, like all of us, is Buddha ... and an opportunity to practice. Thank you. My life, like everyone's life, is filled with sometimes "difficult" people ... in the work place, in our own families ... and we need to learn to be with that. In fact, I know folks in my own life who are 500%, 5000% more difficult than Chet. (Ask my wife and son what I'm like when Jundo gets up on the wrong side of the futon!) The more we encounter "disturbances" ... the more that we can recall that it is within our power not to be "disturbed" by them, as on that other thread ...

viewtopic.php?p=36563#p36563

If you are having a problem with something "disturbing" ... look inward and not only outward.

The only rule on this Forum (besides sitting Shikantaza Zazen each day) is to be gentle with each other in words and tone ... even as we pull no punches in what we say or in speaking Truth (one can do both at once).

Okay ... so we got off the original topic a bit. Getting back to that ...

I too feel great sadness to see the suffering in this world, to see how people mess up their own lives, so often without any need. I feel sadness, wishing that more people could practice and benefit from these Buddhist Teachings.

But our way is to feel sadness with peace (even joy), acceptance without acceptance at the weeds of life ... We clean what needs to be cleaned in life while free of (simultaneously) any idea of "clean vs. dirty", the dirty being perfectly just what it is. Moreover, we clean without any thought that we will ever get things perfectly clean. Yet we clean clean clean ... As Suzuki Roshi said ...

[W]e do not have any idea of dirty or pure, or any idea of calamity or disaster. But even so, [Dogen] says, we have, you know, practice of cleaning ..., you know. That is a kind of practice. We clean our body, you know, because our body is filthy. Even though, our face, or mouth, or body is clean ... when you get up, you should wash your face, and rinse clean your mouth, even though it is clean. We do it as a practice, you know, but not because it is dirty. That is our practice.

We cannot save all the Sentient Beings, most cannot be saved now ... even though we vow to try (and even though, from another perspective, there was never a Sentient Being from the first who was in need of saving). Yet, we try try try.

But how?

This is where the lovely Mahayana teaching of Upaya "Skillful Means" comes in ... Daido Loori described that this way ...

Zen teachers use skillful means—upaya. ... Upaya are employed by all of the schools of Buddhism. Skillful means are necessary because each of us already has what we seek. Each of us is perfect and complete lacking nothing. The first words the Buddha said on his own realization were: "All sentient beings are enlightened." That being the case, what can you give anybody? What could you possibly receive? Buddha did not want to teach at first because he did not know where to begin. When he was beseeched to do so he wondered how he could teach something people already had. After awhile, he began to find the skillful means to communicate, and this was the first turning of the Dharma Wheel. The first teaching he expounded was the Four Noble Truths: the wisdom of suffering, the wisdom of the cause of suffering, the wisdom of the cessation of suffering, and the Eightfold Path. That was the beginning of upaya.

In the 2,500 years that followed, the different schools of Buddhism have developed various kinds of upaya. In a sense, everything we do is upaya. ... All of it is the skillful means to get us to see what is real.

I often say that we do not "proselytize". The best way to demonstrate this practice is just to practice one's practice. Be a good son, daughter, father, mother, friend. If other folks see the change in you that comes from this practice, they may become interested themselves. My mother, later in life, was very open to the road I choose. During the first few years, she had been concerned that "Zen" meant I would be hanging around airports in a bedsheet selling George Harrison CDs. When she had cancer, I even had her Zazening , and in the end, she asked me to perform a "Buddhist Jewish Whatever' funeral as clergy ... which I did.

In the meantime, I had indirectly and subtly got some of the Buddhist message across to her ... and in her later years, she became more "Zen" even without her realizing it ... more embracing of how things were in her life, more "letting go" of troubling things ...

As Peter and several others said here

I've had moments where I've had to stop myself from getting all "preachy," if I can use that term. ... I try to sort of subtly lead by example where I can. ...

We can spread a lot of good, calm and peace just with own 'tude sometimes. That may not further anyone else's path toward enlightenment, but it certainly can't do any harm.

Everything can be Upaya.

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

PS -

This whole thread has rather been a lesson in the original point ...

Does anyone else ever wander around feeling......bad for people who just will never have a moment of awakening? People who are trapped into thinking that their thoughts are theirs..and that their constructions are real?