Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

[disastermouse]

Does anyone else ever wander around feeling......bad for people who just will never have a moment of awakening? People who are trapped into thinking that their thoughts are theirs..and that their constructions are real?

I mean...I wander around in that mode far more than half the time too....but what's been seen cannot be unseen.

The natural urge is to share this Dharma - but to what avail? Even those who have sat diligently for years can be miles from it - even as they're soaking in it.

I must be looking at this wrong...

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Just me, huh?

[Genkai]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

I've had moments where I've had to stop myself from getting all "preachy," if I can use that term. I see people stuck in behavior patterns that I know intimately well from my not-so-mindful past. It's difficult at times to deal directly with folks like that, and yeah it can be sad to watch it when your interaction is more indirect.

But what can you do? Our society demands and even rewards a certain self-centeredness. The sort of delusion that many of us are brought up with can be a tough nut to crack. I try to sort of subtly lead by example where I can. Like when I have a run-in with the ranting, raving loony in my office, I do my best to meet him with a smile and calm responses, despite his aggressive demeanor. It wasn't so long ago that I was the office's ranting, raving loony, after all.

We can spread a lot of good, calm and peace just with own 'tude sometimes. That may not further anyone else's path toward enlightenment, but it certainly can't do any harm.

[Dosho]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Hey Chet,

I wouldn't say I wander around thinking that about people in general, but it does occur to me in regards to my folks....especially after visiting them as I just did. They both cling to a very tight "story" and I see little chance they will ever truly wake up. My mother especially is very unlikely to ever take a real look at herself (or true lackthereof) and I've worked hard not to look at myself with her eyes (after years of training as a child to do exactly that). But after this visit I thought less of her effect on me and more about the fact that I just can't help her. That was very sad to me, so at least I don't think you are looking at it wrong....unless I have missed your point.

Gassho,
Dosho

[CraigfromAz]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

... Even those who have sat diligently for years can be miles from it - even as they're soaking in it.
Chet

Speaking for the "unenlightened" I have to say I worry more about my own enlightenment than that of others. I do sometimes wonder what the world would be like if the majority were enlightened, then realize I don't even know what it would be like for myself to be enlightened...

[Taigu]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Chet,


In waking up, there is no room for that kind of thought. I strongly suggest you to study the manners and teachings of the countless non-Buddhists around you, all a living manifestation of Thusness.

Bows to Chet, one of my teachers

Taigu

[disastermouse]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

... Even those who have sat diligently for years can be miles from it - even as they're soaking in it.
Chet

Speaking for the "unenlightened" I have to say I worry more about my own enlightenment than that of others. I do sometimes wonder what the world would be like if the majority were enlightened, then realize I don't even know what it would be like for myself to be enlightened...

What? No...I mean...have you had but a glimpse? Forget about your ideas of enlightenment - they have nothing to do with reality anyway.

My point is not that others should be enlightened - it's that I feel for them because they are suffering and they haven't even entered the stream towards figuring out the real heart of the matter. And they may never do so...and their suffering is in many cases so needless.

Now, you may or may not have entered the stream - but you may or may not even know at what point you do. As you do this practice, with a will to truth, you are entering the stream. You are acquainting yourself with the great matter. Even if you don't understand.

Just practice with sincerity, curiosity, and compassion.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Chet,


In waking up, there is no room for that kind of thought. I strongly suggest you to study the manners and teachings of the countless non-Buddhists around you, all a living manifestation of Thusness.

Bows to the Chet, one of my teachers

Taigu

I knew there must be something wrong with my thinking and I was looking for correction.

*gassho*

Chet

[CraigfromAz]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

... Even those who have sat diligently for years can be miles from it - even as they're soaking in it.
Chet

Speaking for the "unenlightened" I have to say I worry more about my own enlightenment than that of others. I do sometimes wonder what the world would be like if the majority were enlightened, then realize I don't even know what it would be like for myself to be enlightened...

What? No...I mean...have you had but a glimpse?

Chet

I don't know. I have had moments of great calm and acceptance. But I'm guessing if I had truly "had a glimpse" I would know it.

[disastermouse]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

I don't know. I have had moments of great calm and acceptance. But I'm guessing if I had truly "had a glimpse" I would know it.

Don't be so sure! Remember - shikantaza is the embodiment - the expression - of enlightenment. If you get hung up wondering whether you've seen 'it' - you'll never see it...because 'it' is right here with you now.

Forget about seeing enlightenment...what is 'this right here'? THIS moment is THE moment....not some magical, mystical 'kensho' moment that isn't this moment. Thinking this way just gives you all sorts of crazy ideas and goals for your mind to attempt.

IMHO.

Chet

[Undo]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

.

[AlanLa]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

I don't think feeling sad for bad for people is helpful to those people (or yourself, for that matter). Besides, who says you have the answer? Buddha? Who's he? What answer?

[Stephanie]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

IMO, when you judge people in this way, something is happening that has nothing to do with Dharma...

There are as many kinds of wisdom as there are people. This is one of the realizations I had that helped me choose the path of social work--that even the people most reviled and discarded by society all have their own wisdom. Wisdom that is often unrecognized, unseen, and unheard... Wisdom comes from experience, and everyone has a unique history of experience that gives them a unique perspective on life. Everyone's life is valuable because everyone has experiential wisdom to share. If only we all were better at listening to one another. Lord knows I've still got a long way to go myself, in terms of my openness and ability to listen.

When it comes to Dharma wisdom, experiential knowledge of truth, there is more than one kind of wisdom. There are the insights that come in blinding flashes of truth, and there is the wisdom that gets worn into you over the years, so slowly and subtly you don't even notice it happening. There is realization of emptiness, of the impossibility of tethering ourselves to an unchanging, stable point of view, the knowledge that no thought is true... but there is also realization of patience, of kindness and gentleness, of reverence and respect for others. There is the slow, deep growth in ability to appreciate life. To appreciate, and love what is before us. Your perfectionism, and very strong and narrow judgments of others, continue to block you from this kind of wisdom, IMO. You pity the people who don't know the truth you know, all the while your devotion to your particular perspective blocks you from seeing what they have to teach you, and the ways in which they may be wiser than you. I guarantee if you look at someone long and hard enough, you will see at least one way they are wiser than you.

I remember a Dharma talk (on YouTube, don't know exactly which one it is though) Robert Thurman gave in which he described a tantric visualization in which he was taught to imagine himself as the only unenlightened person in the room and that everyone around him was an enlightened Buddha trying to teach him and wake him up. The funny thing is, this is exactly how things are, in my experience. We are all surrounded by teachers, and our capacity for wisdom is equal to our capacity to be humble enough to submit to be taught by others.

Many times in the past, I used to look at others, and want to teach them about Zen, and zazen, feeling the same sort of feeling you describe, seeing these people caught so much in their own deluded thinking. But I do not really think that way so much anymore. Don't get me wrong, I can be and often am very judgmental of others, especially others' ignorance (as I perceive it), but I don't really go around thinking that if everyone learned to sit zazen and practice that everyone would be saved and we would be living in this perfect, enlightened society. I mean, look at all of us here at Treeleaf, practicing, having gained at least some insight into the mechanism of suffering, and still we all struggle, sometimes flounder with life, in one way or another. So can we really be so arrogant as to say, 'if only everyone did what we do and knew what we knew, the world would be so much better'?

Maybe another way to look at it is, we're all lucky that other people in the world aren't so messed up they need to do this practice that we need to do. I'm grateful for all the sane and normal people that keep society going in ways an army of people like me could not. If it weren't for the deluded, suffering populace that gave Buddha alms, his Enlightened Self would have starved to death. How grateful we should be to the world full of people who don't get whatever we think the truth is, yet who keep us supplied with rice and iPhones and love and support and friendship. How wonderful it is that there are people who unquestioningly accept everything they experience as real, and who thus keep this wonderful carnival going for us who know it's not all real. How wonderful we all have something to contribute in terms of skill and knowledge and experience to this world we must all share and from which none of us can escape.

Think of how many people blazed through history convinced that their superior wisdom was going to save the unfortunate people not as enlightened as they were, and think of all the war, and genocide, and slavery, and psychological cruelty and oppression that came with it.

I guarantee that all the while you go along in your privileged enlightened perspective, there is a lot you are missing that is happening right in front of you, and a lot that is going to pass you by because you couldn't see it or appreciate it, because you too lacked the wisdom to recognize what was right in front of you.

[AlanLa]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

I came back to edit my post a bit, to say who says you have their answers. But basically, what Stephanie said is the same thing, plus some extra. Well said, Stephanie!

[disastermouse]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

IMO, when you judge people in this way, something is happening that has nothing to do with Dharma...

Sometimes judgment is also the Dharma...

When the Buddha said that there were many who could not grasp his Dharma, but that teaching was worth it because there were some who had but very little dust in their eyes - was that judgment not very much a part of the Dharma?

Oh wait! I forgot about all the bloodshed that caused. Strawman much?

But then, the point is not to judge others and say 'they are not awake, they cannot be awake' - the point is to realize that very much of their suffering is unnecessary and they may never know it...and the flip side of that is that we are lucky to have been exposed to and open to the Dharma.

Chet