Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

[disastermouse]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Does anyone else ever wander around feeling......bad for people who just will never have a moment of awakening?

I wouldn't worry Chet. I bet there are quite a few people who are thinking similar things about you or any of us on here.

There is a chance that some people become ex-smoker, ex-drinker or ex-non glimpser about how they view other people. I think this is why is it so important for us to use our beginners mind, with everything.

I might be missing your point when you say

THIS moment is THE moment....not some magical, mystical 'kensho' moment that isn't this moment. Thinking this way just gives you all sorts of crazy ideas and goals for your mind to attempt.

This sounds like you are describing "some magical, mystical 'kensho' moment" just wearing different clothing.

You try really hard to not understand, don't you Undo? How is 'this very moment' anything magical?

Do you like dealing with the intentionally obtuse? Because I don't.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

I came back to edit my post a bit, to say who says you have their answers. But basically, what Stephanie said is the same thing, plus some extra. Well said, Stephanie!

Oh dear - more intentional obtuseness!

My point isn't that I have their answers - the point is that there are answers - very important ones - to which they may never be fortunate enough to realize or to which to be exposed.

Everyone's got sort of a sheep mind about this 'how dare one suggest they know something others do not?' - and yet....in our everyday life, it's constantly that we know things others do not and vice versa.

Do others have lessons to teach me? Certainly. Are many people completely ignorant of the Dharma? Also, certainly. I'm not claiming that it's my Dharma - but that it is the Dharma. It's not automatically wrong to note that others are living their lives in a way that is completely delusional.

Are we really going to pretend that Christianity (as practiced) opens the eyes as does Buddhism? Or that Islam does? Or Judaism? Or Neo-Paganism?

If this is true, why not eliminate Buddhism? It obviously is not necessary.

No...I'm afraid not. Buddhism is unique - and in many ways very radical - and this should not be diminished by this 'different paths up the mountain' business. As a matter of fact, there's a guy who's just written a book about this that looks interesting.

[Rich]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Thanks Stephanie, that was a great post. I can see you writing a book some day

I would make just one comment on "There is realization of emptiness, of the impossibility of tethering ourselves to an unchanging, stable point of view, the knowledge that no thought is true... but there is also realization of patience, of kindness and gentleness, of reverence and respect for others."

Another view is that all thoughts are truth. It's what we do with them that matters. We can quickly spin negative thoughts into obsessions or great fears. the practice is letting them go and just being. Maybe acting on some of them. But who knows the future.

Re: non-buddhists save me every day from my self. they make suggestions and show me what to do. buddhism is just a practice, its not that special and I don't relate to people as enlightened or not enlightened, buddhist or non buddhist.

/Rich

[disastermouse]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Thanks Stephanie, that was a great post. I can see you writing a book some day

I would make just one comment on "There is realization of emptiness, of the impossibility of tethering ourselves to an unchanging, stable point of view, the knowledge that no thought is true... but there is also realization of patience, of kindness and gentleness, of reverence and respect for others."

Another view is that all thoughts are truth. It's what we do with them that matters. We can quickly spin negative thoughts into obsessions or great fears. the practice is letting them go and just being. Maybe acting on some of them. But who knows the future.

Re: non-buddhists save me every day from my self. they make suggestions and show me what to do. buddhism is just a practice, its not that special and I don't relate to people as enlightened or not enlightened, buddhist or non buddhist.

/Rich

More missing the point....

Okay. Obviously I fail utterly at trying to explain myself......so I'm going to take a hiatus from Treeleaf.

I'll come back if I get any better at getting my points across without having them completely misunderstood.

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

I think it pretty simple ...

The Buddha came up with some pretty good medicine for human suffering. We see a lot of suffering in the world, in our own lives too, and we wish more folks would benefit from this medicine.

But we must see "them" as just "us" (in the truest true sense ... like the man trying, with his own hand, to cure a wound on his own hand). We must not think of suffering beings as higher or lower, worse than us, or different from us in any way. We'd best seek to "save all sentient beings" without thought of lowering others or raising ourselves up. More than "there but for the grace of Buddha go I" we might say "there go I".

In fact, we are, each one of us, each Buddhas and each deluded beings ... bozos on the same bus, just trying to get on with the trip.

An eighty year old man must learn from the child of three. The patient teaches the physician, and the physician herself is sometimes a patient. As the physician treats the patient, the patient treats the physician. Stephanie said it so well. I think this is what Chet was trying to point to too.

I am reminded of a few sections of the Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch ...

"One who practices ... does not see the faults of people everywhere. ... The deluded man, however, even if he doesn't move his own body, will talk of the good and bad of others the moment he opens his mouth, and thus will behave in opposition to the [Way]. "

"The lowest people may have the highest wisdom; the highest people may have the least wisdom. If you slight other, you create limitless,unbounded offenses."

[pinoybuddhist]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Woah! Dude, chill! I get your point quite clearly. You don't need to leave. So not everybody understood you - it happens. Happens to me and I get frustrated sometimes. I wonder if I'm saying it wrong or the other person is being deliberately obtuse or if the other person is naturally obtuse... but yeah, I got your point.

Thanks Stephanie, that was a great post. I can see you writing a book some day

I would make just one comment on "There is realization of emptiness, of the impossibility of tethering ourselves to an unchanging, stable point of view, the knowledge that no thought is true... but there is also realization of patience, of kindness and gentleness, of reverence and respect for others."

Another view is that all thoughts are truth. It's what we do with them that matters. We can quickly spin negative thoughts into obsessions or great fears. the practice is letting them go and just being. Maybe acting on some of them. But who knows the future.

Re: non-buddhists save me every day from my self. they make suggestions and show me what to do. buddhism is just a practice, its not that special and I don't relate to people as enlightened or not enlightened, buddhist or non buddhist.

/Rich

More missing the point....

Okay. Obviously I fail utterly at trying to explain myself......so I'm going to take a hiatus from Treeleaf.

I'll come back if I get any better at getting my points across without having them completely misunderstood.

Chet

[Genkai]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

I'm catching up on some Sit-a-Longs.... Taigu dropped some wisdom that you might find applicable to this thread just a few days ago...
http://www.shambhalasun.com/sunspace/?p=17122

Gassho, hope to see you back soon Chet

[Taigu]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Hi Chet,

Sorry that you feel misunderstood. My initial reaction meant that I really wanted to point out something important. Not to deliver a blow. Not my teaching style. You may invistigate the sadness and turn it into a joyful wish; bringing about the Dharma in our life will keep the drama away and has a positive effect on everybody. Boddhisatva work, which is your work, no doubt, can be energetic and positive.

You may also understand that when spoken to in a harsh way, we do experience pain. A good reason to put it into practice and be kind to others even if we have to tell them the truth.

Take care and come back asap

gassho


Taigu

[Jronin]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

I think I know how chet feels and I've felt the same way in the past, but I also realize that thinking like this does not really help anything. The business of saving all sentient beings can sometimes feel like a very lonely endeavor (which is why being part of a community is so important), but I have no illusions that I can save all or any sentient beings (including my own self), by becoming an evangelist. I think a lot of other religions and practices have shown that this can have the opposite effect. Also, there is the danger of thinking you are something "better" or "more enlightened" than the other people around you, and the mind just loves to think like that. It really seperates "you" from the "world", which is exactly the illusion that keeps you from "going beyond". So, feeling bad or sad for those other people around us is actually no different than feeling sad or bad for ourselves (which I have also been guilty of).

But I also think we may be missing what chet is trying to say. The topic post is "Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...".
I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong, chet) that he knows this is "Odd" (not helpful, possibly harmful and definitely risky thinking). The "sadness" is a human feeling that we have all experienced, whether or not we intellectually know that it's harmful or not, sometimes it's just there. The "gratitude" being that the Dharma is here for us to use, whether we choose to use it or not. Many people have chosen not to use it and many have used it without even knowing it, or using it and calling it by a different name. But are these things really any different?

My answer to feelings of sadness for "other" people is this:
Either you walk the path or you don't. If you do, then you spread the Dharma naturally (by example for instance), if you don't, then you live your life in other ways. You will suffer some days and be happy other days. Whether you practice zen or not, you live your life as you best know how, which is natural and perfect. No better, no worse, no sadness, no grattitude, no comparing, no contrasting.

Gassho

[Rich]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Chet, Hope to see your comments soon. I really value your views as they have helped me clarify my own. I often need a hiatus or vacation from something.
/Rich

[Dosho]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Hey Chet,

I'll echo what Rich said and hope you come back when you feel ready. I've wanted to post something for the last couple days, but didn't want to sound...obtuse, I suppose. Take care.

Gassho,
Dosho

[AlanLa]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Chet, you ask in your original post if you are looking at this wrong. Some of us give you a different way to look at it and you call us "obtuse" and claim a need for a hiatus. Maybe we misunderstood, probably we misunderstood, certainly we misunderstand your journey because it is solely your own, just as our journey is ours, and all the people you feel sad about and grateful toward are on their own journey. As Taigu said, it's all buddha. You have the answer, Chet, so look for it in you. When you need us, we'll be here.

[pinoybuddhist]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Thank you for writing this. I spent this afternoon listening to a friend vent about her life and I can relate so much with what you've written.

Gassho,

Rafael

I think I know how chet feels and I've felt the same way in the past, but I also realize that thinking like this does not really help anything. The business of saving all sentient beings can sometimes feel like a very lonely endeavor (which is why being part of a community is so important), but I have no illusions that I can save all or any sentient beings (including my own self), by becoming an evangelist. I think a lot of other religions and practices have shown that this can have the opposite effect. Also, there is the danger of thinking you are something "better" or "more enlightened" than the other people around you, and the mind just loves to think like that. It really seperates "you" from the "world", which is exactly the illusion that keeps you from "going beyond". So, feeling bad or sad for those other people around us is actually no different than feeling sad or bad for ourselves (which I have also been guilty of).

But I also think we may be missing what chet is trying to say. The topic post is "Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...".
I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong, chet) that he knows this is "Odd" (not helpful, possibly harmful and definitely risky thinking). The "sadness" is a human feeling that we have all experienced, whether or not we intellectually know that it's harmful or not, sometimes it's just there. The "gratitude" being that the Dharma is here for us to use, whether we choose to use it or not. Many people have chosen not to use it and many have used it without even knowing it, or using it and calling it by a different name. But are these things really any different?

My answer to feelings of sadness for "other" people is this:
Either you walk the path or you don't. If you do, then you spread the Dharma naturally (by example for instance), if you don't, then you live your life in other ways. You will suffer some days and be happy other days. Whether you practice zen or not, you live your life as you best know how, which is natural and perfect. No better, no worse, no sadness, no grattitude, no comparing, no contrasting.

Gassho

[disastermouse]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Chet, you ask in your original post if you are looking at this wrong. Some of us give you a different way to look at it and you call us "obtuse" and claim a need for a hiatus. Maybe we misunderstood, probably we misunderstood, certainly we misunderstand your journey because it is solely your own, just as our journey is ours, and all the people you feel sad about and grateful toward are on their own journey. As Taigu said, it's all buddha. You have the answer, Chet, so look for it in you. When you need us, we'll be here.

Go.
Fuck.
Yourself.

And take your passive-aggressive bullshit and shove it up your ass.

[AlanLa]

Re: Odd Dharma sadness...and gratitude...

Still here, wondering if you're in a BPD moment.