ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

[disastermouse]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

each time i come to visit this sangha and see all of you i do feel it is a kind of safe place, a home away from home if you will.

This.

Chet

[Tb]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

i know it has nothing to do with anything, but what Kelly wrote made me think of something i felt like saying.
even though my life is hectic at times and i dont find the time or energy to read everything that is posted and respond. each time i come to visit this sangha and see all of you i do feel it is a kind of safe place, a home away from home if you will.

Thank you.

Gassho, Daniel/Dojin.

Hi.

Yes.
There's no place like home.
(now repeat it three times and click your heels together and you'll be there...)


And seishin, deep bows.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[shogyo]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

congratulations to you all in having the opportunity to follow this path

gassho
shogyo

[Silva]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

Bonheur pour la Sangha,
bonheur pour Jundo and Taigu,
bonheur pour Shohei, Hans and Fugen
et pour moi qui suis arrivée pour partager
ce grand bonheur avec vous,

avec toute ma gratitude
Sylvie

[Stephanie]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

To be honest, I have mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, it is inspiring to see this sangha continue to develop. I have strong confidence in the power of Treeleaf to function as a full sangha.

On the other hand, I'm a bit baffled as to what the criteria are for those set to become 'Treeleaf priests.' I mean no offense to anyone, but think this is important enough not to censor myself: I don't see what Shohei, Fugen, and Hans have in common as Dharma students or Treeleaf members. Shohei's commitment to Treeleaf, dedicated practice, and patient and kind demeanor allow me to easily see him in a priest role. But Hans and Fugen? Sorry guys, I mean no disrespect--you both seem like good people, from what I can tell. But Hans' involvement here seems minimal to me, and after reading many of his posts, I'm not sure I have any idea who Fugen is as a real person.

This is the difficulty, and one of my reservations, about an Internet sangha, that it is easy to be casual, half-engaged about it. One might drop in every once in a while to post a comment, or one might be a persistent presence but not be engaged on any real or personal level. Lord knows there's a lot of nerds out there who like to imagine themselves as 'senseis.' How do we judge sincerity on this format? How does one demonstrate commitment to the sangha? Post a lot? Something isn't right about that either. Anyone with an opinion might be moved to post a lot of words... trust me, I know :lol: There's also a concern of... how many priests are we going to train here at Treeleaf? I imagine an absurd scenario where eventually, half the people posting here are priests or priests in training... priests 'priesting' at priests... like a Zen nerd convention... like some bizarre parody of modern Zen written by Beckett.

All this said, I trust Jundo and Taigu enough to be optimistic that this experiment could work. Treeleaf has certainly functioned more powerfully in my own life as a source of teaching, guidance, and practice encouragement than I could have ever imagined. I am sorry if my words offend anyone, but it comes out of my respect for this place and the people who share their lives here. I want this place to continue to develop and grow, and to do so in a way that works and does not dilute the practice or teaching here.

[Jundo]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

To be honest, I have mixed feelings about this.
.

Hi Steph,

These are all legitimate questions. I guess all we can do is check back in 10 years or so and see how it turns out ... like a marriage or a baby or any part of life. We are trying to do this with sincerity, not lightly. Of course, "the best laid plans."

"Shukke" Ordination is not the instant making of a teacher or priest ... it is merely opening the door to a process that has the potential to result in that down the road. The Buddha ordained hundreds and thousands of folks ... and thousands of folks occupied seats in ancient Chan monasteries. Many many folks have been ordained in the West, some who stayed with the process and some who did not. Without that, this Tradition would not have continued until today. Not only ... in fact, very few ... are now known to us or eventually became active as teachers. Maybe out of 10 or 100 people ordained, only a few will stick with it or 'have what it takes' to eventually be a teacher down the road (I have no exact statistics on this).

My criteria (and I think Taigu shares this too) are very simple. I look for someone who seems to have unusual dedication to the Buddhist path, the willingness to learn and master certain traditions and teachings so that they may be continued to future generations, some good insight into the meaning of this Way, potential (emphasis on potential) to act as a teacher or leader of students in the future or to serve in some other role (not every priest needs to be a teacher, and some can be translators, nurses, hospice workers, counselors ...), Wisdom and Compassion, and good honest character.

As I said ... let's see how it turns out in 10 years.

Gassho, J

[Jinyu]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

Hi!
Thank you Stephanie and Jundo !
Jundo's answer make me think about something I was speaking with a friend monk in our Soto tradition.
Most monks and nuns I now in this tradition,(just must add I'm in Belgium and most of them are from the AZI Sangha), are people truly practicing Buddhadharma and really dedicated to this path ... but a very very few of them are engaged in any kind of "teaching thing", I mean barely none of them is going to be teacher.
They never are said to be priests. For example, a know a very few of them who can run anything else than a zazen group, I mean no mariage, or funeral... except a few "heads" who received proper initiation from japanese monks, the majority of them don't, and don't need to .
Maybe it is also a problem within this Sangha where transmission of the Dharma is something very vague that a very few had. (In fact except a very few, all the others where in Japan or in the US to get the Dharma transmission from another teacher).

My point is are we in this Sangha in a more "oriented to teaching" kind of thing, or will you also give tokudo to people dedicated in to the path but not willing to become a teacher. I ask this because, all the monks I know are engaged in a lot of kinds of things, they often guide a sitting group or are dedicated in their local communities (a lot of ecological prevention and those things...) but are not in any kind of race to the Dharma transmission.

I understand that we also will need teachers i this community, I feel we are at the beginning of something, and that is also why Treeleaf is such a special place. That a lot of time and work is needed to form people. But will you later give tokudo to people willing to dedicate themselves to this path but in another way than being teachers?

Anyway, I'm a bit long, but Jundo's post was in a so related with the talk I had this morning that I couldn't resist :lol:

gassho,
Luis/Jinyu
ps: Just hope my English is not too bad on this because I'm exhausted and I didn't read back my post :?

[Undo]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

.

[Jundo]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

I look for someone who seems to have unusual dedication to the Buddhist path, the willingness to learn and master certain traditions and teachings so that they may be continued to future generations, some good insight into the meaning of this Way, potential (emphasis on potential) to act as a teacher or leader of students in the future or to serve in some other role (not every priest needs to be a teacher, and some can be translators, nurses, hospice workers, counselors ...), Wisdom and Compassion, and good honest character.

That sounds like everyone

If only that were so. :? Although it is so for many folks.

We all are/have Buddha-Nature ... that much is true.

[Dojin]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

I think the Point Stephanie raised is very good. i must admit that if i think of it... it might be a good question whether people are fit for the hard and important choice and dedication to such a path. but as jundo said many drop in the middle and some never become teachers.
i do have a belief that the people here at treeleaf are truly here because they want to and i think that if anyone wants to do such a think as to be ordained and begin such a path they should think really well before they decide upon it, and i trust the members of treeleaf to not take such things lightly... the same as i trust Jundo and Taigu to keep thier finger on the pulse of this sangha and not allow such things to be taken lightly.

Gassho, Dojin.

[Tb]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

Hi.

To be honest, I have mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, it is inspiring to see this sangha continue to develop. I have strong confidence in the power of Treeleaf to function as a full sangha.

On the other hand, I'm a bit baffled as to what the criteria are for those set to become 'Treeleaf priests.' I mean no offense to anyone, but think this is important enough not to censor myself: I don't see what Shohei, Fugen, and Hans have in common as Dharma students or Treeleaf members. Shohei's commitment to Treeleaf, dedicated practice, and patient and kind demeanor allow me to easily see him in a priest role. But Hans and Fugen? Sorry guys, I mean no disrespect--you both seem like good people, from what I can tell. But Hans' involvement here seems minimal to me, and after reading many of his posts, I'm not sure I have any idea who Fugen is as a real person.

Stephanie, Thank you.
This makes all this worth the while.
Let me talk a little about the dharma marxbrothers.
When the issue was first brought up, Jundo mentioned there would be others with me, and there were some that i could think of, and those included shohei and hans.
We're about to become "cloud and water" and it's a good way to describe us i think.
Shohei is water, soothing but can be hard if need be.
Hans is cloud, no question being high up there being good at the "higher things", watching over us and i'll be the and.
But as i said earlier in the thread, this doesn't make us 'holier than thou' or anything.
And it certainly doesn't make us more enlightened!! :shock:
We're nothing special.
We're here, and if you want to talk to us, we're available, more or less all of us at the sundayteaparty each sunday.
Otherwise, give us a call.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[Hans]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

Hi Stephanie,

I thoroughly enjoyed your honest questions. One quote comes to my mind: "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"

If we talk/act trash....that's what we do. No matter whether we are ordained, half ordained or fully ordained. If we talk/act in a way beneficial to others, that's what we do.

Leaving home seems to me to be a lot like marriage in many ways.... you make vows to marry the one you love. One can love just as deeply and be loved in return without any such ceremony and act, but being officially married imposes certain obligations and makes breaking up much less of an option.

Que sera sera...

Gassho,

Hans

[Dosho]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

Hi all,

Leave it to Stephanie to break though the inital glow to ask the hard questions. Bless you and Chet for bringing such an attitude to our sangha! It is a sometimes jarring but welcome attitude that is a perfect counterbalance to those of us who sometimes stay on the sidelines too long.

I must admit that I am curious about how this process came about and how Shohei, Fugen, and Hans were chosen. Were they approached with this idea? Did they ask for it specifically? It is certainly possible that the specifics are best left to just the teachers and students involved and, if such is the case, it is not my intention to pry loose the answers. But I do think it is a valid question to ask how such things are done generally speaking.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Sloppy_Zen]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

Wow!

Gone a few days and come back to this news! Congratulations to all of you! Interesting comments - I am very pleased to see this as means growth for the entire community!

Congrats again!

-Jim

[Eika]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

It is certainly possible that the specifics are best left to just the teachers and students involved and, if such is the case, it is not my intention to pry loose the answers. But I do think it is a valid question to ask how such things are done generally speaking.

Gassho,
Dosho

It is my very limited understanding that it is a mutual agreement that can be initiated by either party. In this case, since we never had it before and Jundo probably didn't want to open the flood gates with a "free beer" sign, he and Taigu had a few folks in mind to ask to be Guinea Pigs.
As to the question of why them, I imagine that there are many factors that we are unaware of . . . things gleaned in Skypes or other such interactions that prompted Jundo and Taigu to approach them first.
I think the only downside I forsee is a kind of one-upsmanship in postings on the part of the rest of the Treeleaf sangha to be one of the next ones asked. Not sure how to avoid that, and the various accounts mostly confirm that that kind of competition is common in brick and mortar zendos and monasteries. All part of this experiment I suppose.
I'm glad that this is happening. Even if I'm never one of the novices, I still think the experiment is necessary. Many compositions start out as simple musical experiments. Some of those experiments fail and are forgotten quickly, but sometimes some very original and beautiful music comes from those experiments.

Bows to all,
Eika