ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

[Dosho]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

It is certainly possible that the specifics are best left to just the teachers and students involved and, if such is the case, it is not my intention to pry loose the answers. But I do think it is a valid question to ask how such things are done generally speaking.

Gassho,
Dosho

It is my very limited understanding that it is a mutual agreement that can be initiated by either party. In this case, since we never had it before and Jundo probably didn't want to open the flood gates with a "free beer" sign, he and Taigu had a few folks in mind to ask to be Guinea Pigs.
As to the question of why them, I imagine that there are many factors that we are unaware of . . . things gleaned in Skypes or other such interactions that prompted Jundo and Taigu to approach them first.
I think the only downside I forsee is a kind of one-upsmanship in postings on the part of the rest of the Treeleaf sangha to be one of the next ones asked. Not sure how to avoid that, and the various accounts mostly confirm that that kind of competition is common in brick and mortar zendos and monasteries. All part of this experiment I suppose.
I'm glad that this is happening. Even if I'm never one of the novices, I still think the experiment is necessary. Many compositions start out as simple musical experiments. Some of those experiments fail and are forgotten quickly, but sometimes some very original and beautiful music comes from those experiments.

Bows to all,
Eika

Although I initially thought it odd that the first candidates would be announced at the same time we find out about the process in the first place, I agree with the "free beer" metaphor and I wouldn't have wanted to be the tech dealing with Jundo's overflowing inbox.

I'd be lying if I said this kind of thing had never crossed my mind before and it is definitely something I might want to pursue after a long period of well established practice. My only concern going forward would be that the "loud" ones would end up at the front while the "quiet" ones don't get much attention. However, you probably couldn't have found a much "quieter" group. And I mean that in a good way.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Stephanie]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

Hans and Fugen, I appreciate your warm and straightforward fielding of my concerns. I think first and foremost, from what Jundo is saying, a priest is someone present to and fully engaged with the sangha, and I hope to get to know you both better as people and Dharma students as you embark upon this path. I suspect there is much richness in both of you that is yet to be seen!

I understand that undertaking priest training does not confer some special status. I'm a skeptic by nature and am not even that impressed with Dharma Transmission... I think it's a necessary and useful method of developing teachers, but it's not a perfect system and some real dull-eyed folks have gotten to ascend their own 'Roshi throne' to personal aggrandizement when their teacher bestows upon them what they imagine to be the title of 'Lord of the Universe.' It's comical, really. What do you get, for 'Dharma fame'? The 'respect' of people who project their own crap onto you and want you to be their Mommy, Daddy, etc.? All that matters is the freedom of knowing the truth. That's what I care about in my practice... freedom from my delusions, so I can fully appreciate this fleeting life, to be able to experience love and joy that is not dependent on my limited preferences.

My concern is that the people who become priests can fill the role well, do it whole-heartedly. Make this place more powerful, make the teaching and support of the community stronger. If the priests are not clearly visible here as strong practitioners, then we run the risk of coming across as the Buddhist equivalent of an online university where it's easier to get a degree but no one really respects it. We already run that risk simply by virtue of being an online sangha.

While I certainly believe there are unique virtues to 'brick and mortar' sanghas, I do not believe these are as significant as some do. Online interaction has unique strengths and disadvantages. I do not believe 'brick and mortar' automatically equals 'more authentic'; people are equally capable of bullcrap face-to-face. But I do believe it's a bit easier to 'hide' online, to airbrush one's virtual image... and because people don't have to leave home to participate here, there may already be a bit less dedication or commitment. It is not necessarily so, however, and I have great hopes for the capacity of this place as a Dharma training center that knows no geographic bounds (though unfortunately linguistic ones) and allows more open sharing of life experience and issues by sangha members with the entire community. We have a capacity to reach people here that have financial, psychological, or other issues that might have otherwise prevented them from ever setting foot in a 'brick and mortar' sangha. We offer an alternative to people disappointed by their 'brick and mortar' experiences. This place is potentially immeasurably valuable... and also potentially as worthless as a tin penny. I think we should be careful, and set a strong example of how this can be done well.

We now have the chance to see if "digital transmission" can work. (I don't mean full Dharma transmission only, but also the capacity to train and develop fully capable priests.) I fully believe it can, but only if we are not sloppy about it.

I hope Shohei, Fugen, and Hans are up to the challenge :wink:

[Rich]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

Shohei, Hans and Fugen - this is a huge commitment and responsibility you have undertaken and I wish you the best in caring for and teaching the dharma. I can't even imagine taking on something like that because I struggle just to keep up with my work and family responsibilities. I enjoy reading and learning from all the Treeleafers and hope that some of my expressions may help in some way.

Stephanie - this is all so new that nobody really knows where its going. I appreciate many of your perspectives. Thanks.

/Rich

[Shohei]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

Hiyas
Thank you all for your support and concerns.

Like any first steps we WILL fall down...we may need some encouragement and correction (of course gentle or not as the situation warrants).This means some helping hand getting back up! Hope you do not mind if imposed upon!
That said no one is taking this lightly. I agree Steph, on the worry about coming off as some dharma diploma mill, how ever I think if you read the 33 page doc you will see were sticking dang close to the rules and this has not been Treeleaf's/Jundo's/Taigu's/Your/Our intention or goal past or present. I may not be a teacher in this life beyond "Don/t do what Dirk does", but only time will tell. Shukke Tokudo is to celibrate the beginning steps on a path(who can know where it will lead?) not to validate any of us as Something other(like Daddy/Mommy or big pappa smurf).

We are ALL here to serve and learn.


Gassho
Shohei

[Jundo]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

Hey Guys,

It is healthy to talk about all this, and I was expecting that most of these questions would come up.

I must admit that I am curious about how this process came about and how Shohei, Fugen, and Hans were chosen. Were they approached with this idea? Did they ask for it specifically? It is certainly possible that the specifics are best left to just the teachers and students involved and, if such is the case, it is not my intention to pry loose the answers. But I do think it is a valid question to ask how such things are done generally speaking.

I had been speaking to Hans, Shohei and Fugen over the past couple of years, and watching them closely too (they were some of the first folks to join the Sangha when we opened the doors ... and have been here consistently throughout, which I take as one of many signs of some dedication to this Practice) and had gathered, for that and many other reasons, that they each have an exceptional dedication to this Practice, seriousness about this Practice (granted, not always so obvious in Fugen's case! 8) ), some very good qualities as people, and were interested in ordination (in general) somewhere down the road or somehow deepening their connection to this Tradition.

That is why I approached them with the proposal of "Shukke Tokudo" here, although I feel it was completely a mutual proposal and decision.

By the way, they are not the only folks around here who have "an exceptional dedication to this Practice ... very good qualities as people, etc. etc." There are many. However, because this is the first time ... and Taigu and I want to see it done right ... we settled on three people as the "test monkeys we will launch into space". 8) Once we learn from this experience (and hopefully it proves itself as worthwhile), there will be others I am sure.

HOWEVER, Stephanie's comment that "half the people here might end up priests" is not going to happen in any manner. First, it really does take a certain type of person, with a true calling, to consider seriously becoming clergy. Many folks who have the general qualities would, nonetheless, not have personal interest, inner calling or time. It is a big undertaking and hard work. Furthermore, many other folks who "want to get ordained" would be gently dissuaded by Taigu and myself, or (in some other cases) told to wait a few more years, because they frankly don't seem so cut out for it now. So, "mass ordinations" are just not going to happen around here. Not on my watch.

What's more ... Shukke is just the start of training. It is not becoming a full priest, which is only a potential down the road.

I think the only downside I forsee is a kind of one-upsmanship in postings on the part of the rest of the Treeleaf sangha to be one of the next ones asked. Not sure how to avoid that, and the various accounts mostly confirm that that kind of competition is common in brick and mortar zendos and monasteries.

Well, I am pretty good in spotting apple polishing or playing politics, and that would be one of the criteria --not-- considered as a positive. Bullshit is not a plus. A sincere dedication to and love of this Tradition is.

My only concern going forward would be that the "loud" ones would end up at the front while the "quiet" ones don't get much attention.

No, in fact some of the folks who might have potential in the years to come may be wall flowers (being of few words is so often a good thing in this Practice) but with huge hearts. Some might have some rough edges on the surface, but so much to offer in other ways. Some may have seen a piece of life, ups and downs, and be a bit battle scarred.

As they say in the "Looking for Love" columns ... "No phonies please, only the sincere need apply".

I think it's a necessary and useful method of developing teachers, but it's not a perfect system and some real dull-eyed folks have gotten to ascend their own 'Roshi throne'

Taigu and I feel the same way. We are setting out to do this right and, frankly, better than it has often been done.

Gassho, J

PS- Someone asked what to call Shohei, Hans and Fugen after they are ordained as "Priest-Trainees". I would suggest "Shohei, Hans and Fugen".

[ghop]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

Bullshit is not a plus.

There goes my chance. :roll:

being of few words is so often a good thing in this Practice

There goes alot of chances for alot of people. 8)

[Dosho]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

Someone asked what to call Shohei, Hans and Fugen after they are ordained as "Priest-Trainees". I would suggest "Shohei, Hans and Fugen".

:mrgreen:

Thank you Jundo.

[Jinyu]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

I think it's a necessary and useful method of developing teachers, but it's not a perfect system and some real dull-eyed folks have gotten to ascend their own 'Roshi throne'

Taigu and I feel the same way. We are setting out to do this right and, frankly, better than it has often been done.

Hi! :wink:
For me it is probably the most important and I'm sure you will!
Thank you for your explanations, things needed to be said

gassho,
Jinyu

[Undo]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

.

[disastermouse]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

I'm usually suspicious of all the 'cruft' that goes along with Zen - the tradition, the hagiography (addressed by Jundo already), etc...and just a lot of the 'inside club' stuff I've seen at other centers.

But for some reason, I'm pretty excited about this. I don't know Hans or Fugen at all - and Steph makes a good point about how they are not really frequent contributors to the forum lately. I'm sure that'll probably change quite a bit in the coming months and years and so I'm looking forward to getting to know them and their teaching styles. That said, I don't really worry about whether Jundo or Taigu have thought about this - they seem to be pretty deliberate about it thus far and I've genuinely grown to trust them pretty darned well. I don't know when it happened, but somewhere along the line, Jundo became 'my' teacher (in my conversations about Treeleaf in the 'meatworld') and Treeleaf became 'my sangha'. I've been so reticent about being a 'joiner' - it's not my natural tendency and my way of communicating, as many can probably tell, shows it - but nonetheless, here I am, a member of an actual Sangha and not just 'free-balling' it anymore. That sort of trust is new to me, and the reason it hasn't happened in other places is specifically because of all the weird politics of Zen - that combined with the fact that pretty much all of my disagreements with the management here have been about teensy little things in relation to what I think is the important part of Zen practice. I don't doubt that Jundo and Taigu place importance on what is, in my mind at least, the 'big stuff'.

I talk with Dirk on Facebook chat from time to time - and a few things stick out for me. First, he's incredibly generous of spirit. Second, he's pretty enthusiastic about the practice. Three, he's humble. Four, he's unbelievably dedicated in a weirdly 'quiet' way. He may not be one of the 'loud bunch' here, but he'd literally give you the rakusu off his back. My only surprise about his inclusion in the first batch is that because he's so self-deprecating, it wouldn't have occurred to me that he'd ever think himself 'ready'. Good on him that he is! (Oh yeah, a final thing that stands out about chatting with Dirk is that nearly every time I we talk, I leave the conversation feeling like I really need to increase my own dedication to my Zazen practice.)

Anyway, that's just my thinking about this - take it or leave it. Honestly, regardless of what anyone may think of the 'first three' - they definitely ought to at least be given a chance before we start saying 'why them?'

Why them? Why not?. From my limited perspective, I don't see anything particularly glaring that should keep them from pursuing this if it's in their hearts.

Chet

[Myozan Kodo]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

Shohei, Hans and Fugen, this is great news. An auspicious announcement! To take on the name of “priest” in 2010 is a brave move. There is a daunting responsibility to bring honour to the title in the times we live in. It is a joyous occasion that persons of your quality will do just that.
Congratulations and respect,
Soen

[Jundo]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

Do you mind if I ask why you didn't want Kyrillos to mention it until now?

Gassho

undo

Oh, I just asked him to hold off a few days, cause I thought it would be nice if we could celebrate all together like this.

[Myozan Kodo]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

By the way, the two things that have ruined Ireland have been priests and booze. Hopefully, my respect for one of these two will go up in the near future!
;-)
Soen

[Jundo]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

Ya know, "priest" or "monk" are terms that are actually pretty ill fitting translations for the original Japanese/Chinese (or Pali/Sanskrit) ... imposed when Judeo-Christian vocabulary was used to translate concepts that are different in important ways. I usually post this ...

The words "monk" and "priest" do not really work as good translations of the Japanese terms, and were picked, obviously, from a Judeo-Christian vocabulary. "Priest" carries the feeling of working some power to intervene with God/the spirits, and most Zen "monks" only reside in monasteries for short periods as part of their training ... so both words are not good fits (except when the person is actually residing in a monastery and might be described then as a "monk".). The best translations might be "Companion" "Guide" "Teacher" or (my favorite) "Rabbi (which also means "teacher")".

I prefer "Zen clergy or teacher or minister ". One of the many Japanese terms usually (and awkwardly) translated as "monk/priest" in English is actually closer to "Buddhist companion", which I care for very much ...

??

So "Buddhist companion" may be the most accurate.

Of course, many "Zen priests" in Japan and China do reside in temples in which they are largely concerned with performing funeral and other ceremonies for parishioners to appease the spirits, bring good fortune or the like. In such case, "priest" is not inaccurate to describe such folks.

[Eika]

Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Our 1st Treeleaf “Home-Leaving Ordinations

I'm not sure where I heard this, but Shukke does not a teacher make . . . that Jundo and/or Taigu must still give them permission later to teach if they have proven to have all of the skills to do so. In other words, they have entered seminary, but haven't been accorded any special status. I'm thinking of the many people who enter monasteries and receive Shukke ordination but leave after a couple of years to do other things besides teach.

So, here at Treeleaf there may be some implicit understanding that Shukke is about heading toward being a teacher, but the primary spirit as I understand it is that of leaving the 'small self' behind and dedicating oneself to the three jewels. That may end up manifesting as something other than being a dharma teacher.

As was said about Jukai, if you are already living with that dedication, then you have already taken Shukke just not formally.

Am I offbase?

--Eika