Experiment: Don't judge your practice (really!)

[Jundo]

Re: Experiment: Don't judge your practice (really!)

So, i would temper this a bit by saying don't invest anything in those inevitable judgments of your practice once they happen. Discarding those judgements is just another part of the process/practice.

This is important. Do not judge ... even to the point that ya cut yourself some slack, and do not get judgmental over the fact that you may have slipped into judging for a moment! Just notice the fact, and return to non-judging! :shock: Good point, Al. In "Just Sitting" we drop all thoughts of "good and bad" even to the point of not thinking it "bad" if we sometimes fall into thoughts of "good and bad" for a time!

Sounds crazy ... but that's ZEN! :wink:

We also have that "judging without judging" (acceptance without acceptance) perspective ... where we can have some moderate judgments, and simultaneously radically drop all judgments (on another channel, if you will) ... SOME JUDGMENTS AND NO JUDGMENTS AT ALL, ALL AT ONCE!!

As Chet said ... if you can see it, There's even peace in 'not-peace'

Ghop said ...

When the mind starts churning again after a period of peace I start doubting "objectless" sitting and I want to start counting or following my breath, thinking I will find the desired results there since I lost them here.

Yes ... and that "ego-I's" own "doubting" "wanting" "thinking of desired results" and of "loss" is exactly what we drop away in Shikantaza.

Perhaps, in this practice, we are not pushing passing sensations of "peace" so much as the abiding Peace of being totally at home in one's moccasins (in fact, just being the moccasins! 8) ). The former you can get quicker with a valium. The latter is truly a sound way to live, free of all resistance to life, oneness with the self-life-world.

I am watching the "Buddha" from PBS that was broadcast last week. Of course, it is just an interpretation by some of the quoted commentators in that one film, but the story does leave the impression that ... after trying various extreme practices of the mind and body, and attaining many concentrated states of mind to take him out of this life and let him escape from the world ... the Buddha finally found that it was "just this" all along, right where he stood, and how to be totally "one-life's-moccasins". **

Gassho, J

** I think folks are familiar with the Americanism, "at home in one's moccasins", but it just means to be totally at home in one's own shoes, where one is and with what is.

[Shugen]

Re: Experiment: Don't judge your practice (really!)

Great! But will you try the experiment? One week of practice wthout judgement.

Chet

Yes.

Ron

[murasaki]

Re: Experiment: Don't judge your practice (really!)

Freeing! Because I am the queen of self-judgement in zazen and everything else. I will try this experiment.

Gassho
Julia

[AlanLa]

Re: Experiment: Don't judge your practice (really!)

First and foremost, I completely support the idea of not judging your practice. But Jundo and Taigu have taught me the value of dropping some stones in the still pond, so here goes.

Once we value something, such as our practice, it is natural to start judging it. The very act of valuing it is a judgment. To practice with sincere effort (as mentioned above) is a series of judgments; sincerity is a judgment of quality and effort is a judgment of how much we put into it. My point is that judgments are inevitable, but they are also useful as motivators. The key is to place these judgments in the proper context. Recognize them for what they are, use them, and then drop them. Can your practice be better? Yes, so get better at it AND so what. It is practice we are doing, not perfection (which is another judgment, btw). Ultimately, you just go with it. Will writes about this here all the time, and he does so quite well, I think (another judgment, btw).

Many bows for your journey in the practice.....

[disastermouse]

Re: Experiment: Don't judge your practice (really!)

First and foremost, I completely support the idea of not judging your practice. But Jundo and Taigu have taught me the value of dropping some stones in the still pond, so here goes.

Once we value something, such as our practice, it is natural to start judging it. The very act of valuing it is a judgment. To practice with sincere effort (as mentioned above) is a series of judgments; sincerity is a judgment of quality and effort is a judgment of how much we put into it. My point is that judgments are inevitable, but they are also useful as motivators. The key is to place these judgments in the proper context. Recognize them for what they are, use them, and then drop them. Can your practice be better? Yes, so get better at it AND so what. It is practice we are doing, not perfection (which is another judgment, btw). Ultimately, you just go with it. Will writes about this here all the time, and he does so quite well, I think (another judgment, btw).

Many bows for your journey in the practice.....

How would your practice be better? What would that mean?

This tendency for self-improvement is problematic in a practice like shikantaza. I would hope that after a while, a Zen student would start to realize that exactly what gets in the way of realizing 'just this' is this quest to attain 'just this'. I also think that after a while, the whole 'motivation' thing changes. I don't sit zazen because I think I should, or to get anything, or out of guilt - I sit because I realize that Dogen was right - shikantaza is the expression of enlightenment - I look forward to letting everything drop to the extent that it does (and even dropping the idea of dropping) - just resting 'in this' - which is always with us, but to which we pile on so much. I don't value practice at all - for me, it's beyond value or not-value. I don't want to express enlightenment in shikantaza because I think it's somehow better than delusion, I simply know that my attachment to 'the show' causes stress and even at my most deluded, there is a small reminder caged somewhere in me that never forgets that even in the most screwed-up mental state or situational reality - there is the seed of basic sanity, of Buddha - that permeates even the most convoluted and attached of my mental states. In fact, it's like the seed IS also those convoluted mental states - or that the convoluted mental states are also an expression of the seed of sanity. It's a mistaken belief of the ego that so much energy is required to maintain goodness, to maintain security, to maintain a beneficial 'life-situation' - it's like ego mistakes the expression of enlightenment (which is ALL content) for the seed of enlightenment/goodness/happiness (which is the ESSENCE or GROUND of reality). Basic sanity and goodness require no energy to maintain, and maintaining generally beneficial expressions of that sanity usually only requires a withdrawal of energy from the act of clinging to convoluted mental forms.

If you bring this 'maintenance' mentality to the practice of shikantaza - you aren't practicing shikantaza. Arguably, you aren't even really practicing Buddhism, IMHO. It's natural and normal to procede this way as a beginner, because our lives are so set up as a 'maintenance of positive content/situations' that it's difficult to even contemplate not doing it in all aspects of our lives. Shikantaza is an invitation to experiment with not doing this quite so automatically. When you then judge your practice, you are introducing this 'maintenance' mindset to a practice that, when engaged in correctly, fundamentally does not honor the assumed preeminence of the maintenance mindset. That is - in shikantaza, there is no language, no foothold, 'nowhere to direct your mind'. Shikantaza is freedom from the assumed preeminence of 'maintenance mind'.

IMHO.

Chet

[Janne H]

Re: Experiment: Don't judge your practice (really!)

Hi Chet,

Gassho

[ghop]

Re: Experiment: Don't judge your practice (really!)

Shikantaza is an invitation to experiment with not doing this quite so automatically. When you then judge your practice, you are introducing this 'maintenance' mindset to a practice that, when engaged in correctly, fundamentally does not honor the assumed preeminence of the maintenance mindset. That is - in shikantaza, there is no language, no foothold, 'nowhere to direct your mind'. Shikantaza is freedom from the assumed preeminence of 'maintenance mind'.

Thanks Chet! That last line really gets me. If I suffer from anything it is this gnawing feeling of never adding up, always having to improve something or someone or (mostly) myself. And you're right...I've only been sitting for a few months now, but it's amazing how much of this just starts "dawning" on one when they continue sitting. When I first started I wanted a detailed outline of how to get "there" from "here." I would get kinda angry when Jundo was say "just sit." It was like, no, he's gotta be wrong. I've gotta DO something. But I'm starting to "get it" (even thought there's nothing to get :wink: ) and where at first I was afraid just to experience THIS, I now find so much relief and pleasure just sitting and enjoying the wide open space of WHATEVER.

gassho
ghop

[disastermouse]

Re: Experiment: Don't judge your practice (really!)

Shikantaza is an invitation to experiment with not doing this quite so automatically. When you then judge your practice, you are introducing this 'maintenance' mindset to a practice that, when engaged in correctly, fundamentally does not honor the assumed preeminence of the maintenance mindset. That is - in shikantaza, there is no language, no foothold, 'nowhere to direct your mind'. Shikantaza is freedom from the assumed preeminence of 'maintenance mind'.

Thanks Chet! That last line really gets me. If I suffer from anything it is this gnawing feeling of never adding up, always having to improve something or someone or (mostly) myself. And you're right...I've only been sitting for a few months now, but it's amazing how much of this just starts "dawning" on one when they continue sitting. When I first started I wanted a detailed outline of how to get "there" from "here." I would get kinda angry when Jundo was say "just sit." It was like, no, he's gotta be wrong. I've gotta DO something. But I'm starting to "get it" (even thought there's nothing to get :wink: ) and where at first I was afraid just to experience THIS, I now find so much relief and pleasure just sitting and enjoying the wide open space of WHATEVER.

gassho
ghop

My further advice is this - forget all about enlightenment - what is this? There is just this - if this isn't enlightenment, then what could enlightenment be? It really isn't 'something else', because that something else is just a picture in your head or an emotional feeling of lack - it's not a full realization of this - it's extra energy, it's strategizing...it's taking this, making a picture of it, and projecting possible futures, memories of the past, scenarios, etc. The mind will do this anyway, but when you create an identity with it, when you lose an anchoring in the actual reality of your living existence....you're trapped in the 'show', not 'watching the show'....not even really immersed in the show, since you're also sub-strategizing and fluctuating the show to try to get the best possible situation at all times.

Enlightenment is easy - it's delusion that takes a whole lot of work - we just don't see that because we don't even realize how hard we're working at clinging, aversion, etc.

IMHO

Chet

[Janne H]

Re: Experiment: Don't judge your practice (really!)

Hi Chet,

I don´t know if you have heard this talk by Krishnamurti, it really relates to what you are expressing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqL9c4jYigk[/video]]

(He gets to the subject after a few of minutes in to the talk, and there´s 5 parts)

Janne

[ghop]

Re: Experiment: Don't judge your practice (really!)

it's taking this, making a picture of it, and projecting possible futures, memories of the past, scenarios, etc. The mind will do this anyway, but when you create an identity with it, when you lose an anchoring in the actual reality of your living existence....you're trapped in the 'show', not 'watching the show'....not even really immersed in the show, since you're also sub-strategizing and fluctuating the show to try to get the best possible situation at all times.

When you say "create an identity with it" do you mean creating a "self" to experience situations? So really then the whole thing is an illusion, from the viewpoint of "life" happening to "me," right? It's just Life unfolding, and I am a part of that, not seperate, not a victim when things go bad, and not a winner when things go good. Would this be right?

gassho
ghop

[disastermouse]

Re: Experiment: Don't judge your practice (really!)

I could give you a philosophical answer, but what help would that be in your actual zazen? I don't want want to give you an anchor to drag into your practice, but when I say 'create an identity' I really mean this activity of getting hooked by a thought. Thoughts will happen, but when you get hooked by one, you go into it and out of diffuse sense perception or 'awareness of everything that is nothing'. Mental objects appear to arise and self-reference happens then. Apparent subject/object dichotomy arises, sensations are organized into apparent distinct forms, and those forms cause a sort of separation awareness - a 'not-me' the formation of which subtly implies a witness. If you watch, the witness isn't stagnant..sometimes it's a subtle sense, other times it jumps into the imagination as a distinct thing.

When Taigu talks about even the witness being gone, I think he means that even this subtly implied self drops away. He can clear it up if I've got his teaching wrong.

None of this goble-Dee-gook should concern you at all though, IMHO. Sit, unhook as you get hooked, and don't forget to also unhook this subtle 'unhooker'.

Chet

[Taigu]

Re: Experiment: Don't judge your practice (really!)

Yes, Chet, something like that. No self, whatsoever. The action of hooking-feeding-cultivating a thought generates an illusion of self, a sticky fiction that may dress itself up in the witness rags. And of course, realizing oneness with life as-it-is, the self drops away. Everytime and non-time two fighting bulls enter the stream and disappear...

I really like your attempt to describe how it comes about in a nutshell.


gassho


Taigu

[Jundo]

Re: Experiment: Don't judge your practice (really!)

This tendency for self-improvement is problematic in a practice like shikantaza. I would hope that after a while, a Zen student would start to realize that exactly what gets in the way of realizing 'just this' is this quest to attain 'just this'. I also think that after a while, the whole 'motivation' thing changes. I don't sit zazen because I think I should, or to get anything, or out of guilt - I sit because I realize that Dogen was right - shikantaza is the expression of enlightenment - I look forward to letting everything drop to the extent that it does (and even dropping the idea of dropping) - just resting 'in this' - which is always with us, but to which we pile on so much. I don't value practice at all - for me, it's beyond value or not-value. I don't want to express enlightenment in shikantaza because I think it's somehow better than delusion, I simply know that my attachment to 'the show' causes stress and even at my most deluded, there is a small reminder caged somewhere in me that never forgets that even in the most screwed-up mental state or situational reality - there is the seed of basic sanity, of Buddha - that permeates even the most convoluted and attached of my mental states. In fact, it's like the seed IS also those convoluted mental states - or that the convoluted mental states are also an expression of the seed of sanity. It's a mistaken belief of the ego that so much energy is required to maintain goodness, to maintain security, to maintain a beneficial 'life-situation' - it's like ego mistakes the expression of enlightenment (which is ALL content) for the seed of enlightenment/goodness/happiness (which is the ESSENCE or GROUND of reality).

===

My further advice is this - forget all about enlightenment - what is this? There is just this - if this isn't enlightenment, then what could enlightenment be? It really isn't 'something else', because that something else is just a picture in your head or an emotional feeling of lack - it's not a full realization of this - it's extra energy, it's strategizing...it's taking this, making a picture of it, and projecting possible futures, memories of the past, scenarios, etc. The mind will do this anyway, but when you create an identity with it, when you lose an anchoring in the actual reality of your living existence....you're trapped in the 'show', not 'watching the show'....not even really immersed in the show, since you're also sub-strategizing and fluctuating the show to try to get the best possible situation at all times.

Enlightenment is easy - it's delusion that takes a whole lot of work - we just don't see that because we don't even realize how hard we're working at clinging, aversion, etc.

Thank you, Chet, and many bows. A succinct, un-sugar coated expression of the infinite depth of this jewel, always here all along. I will keep this post around here somewhere, and pull it out from time to time to read.

Basic sanity and goodness require no energy to maintain, and maintaining generally beneficial expressions of that sanity usually only requires a withdrawal of energy from the act of clinging to convoluted mental forms.

On this ... I am not so sure of the "goodness" requiring "no maintenance", however (if I understood your point correctly).

It is almost as if this walk brings us to a constant cross-roads, and while it leads in and is weighted toward the harmless and Compassionate direction, it can go the other way too. I have never felt that realization in Wisdom necessarily brings about "acting right" on the Compassion face (at least, it does not mean that the inner 'still voice' need be well heard), not without further tending to the garden among the flowers and weeds which can even grow amid "seeds of sanity". I have seen too many folks with deep realization of the world, yet who have somehow lost their way in their relationship to others in this world. I think the Precepts help keep us on the good road, both before and after realization. That may require some "maintenance" and work, for life is complex, ever changing, with new situations and challenges presented one upon another.

Endless Gassho, Jundo

[disastermouse]

Re: Experiment: Don't judge your practice (really!)

Hey Jundo,

By 'goodness' I don't really mean 'virtue' or 'right conduct' - virtue and good conduct are content, IMHO - a sort of alignment of 'directly here' wisdom and a true compassion. By 'goodness', I meant the primary reality of 'nothing lacking' (even when expressed as a feeling of lacking, LOL). Maybe I should have used the term 'wholeness'. I'm fond of the term 'fundamental sanity'.

To me, virtue is a culmination of non-harmful actions that arises from all of the eightfold 'action-plan' working together. Action. Path. Conduct. That is, virtue is a condition that arises. I think this is why Buddha gave moral instruction, because although 'Right View' follows from 'Right Concentration/Absorption', virtue nonetheless IS a conditioned arising. There actually IS maintenance required here.

It seems that a LOT of people make the assumption that the beauty of a realization of the perfection of fundamental sanity is all that's needed, and I can understand why. It can be a very powerful and jarring thing! But to my understanding, even though one has glimpsed the perfection of reality, still - unskillful views and action patterns do not just disappear. But also, teachings on morals make more sense in light of acquaintence with 'Right View'.

Chet

[Taigu]

Re: Experiment: Don't judge your practice (really!)

Chet,

I would like to join my Brother's gassho. Such clarity here. A very good example of how Bodhidharma comes from the West.

Anyway, thank you.


Taigu