Chöd and other Buddhist approaches to practical demonkeeping

[Stephanie]

Re: Chöd and other Buddhist approaches to practical demonkeeping

Any position we take, or view we subscribe to, is wrong (etc) from one "level". Taking no position as position, taking no view as view.....
We can't talk about this, or think about it.

Gassho

[Janne H]

Re: Chöd and other Buddhist approaches to practical demonkeeping

But if things are already perfect as they are, why would we change anything? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it..." So why fix anything that ain't fundamentally broke?

Some cases are more obvious. We must fix the flat tire for our car to be able to go. So we do it, and keep rolling. It's less obvious when it comes to "character flaws" or "personal issues." If my anger is perfect, why utilize a tool to reduce it? If we say, "to reduce harm or suffering," why do that? If this world, as riddled with suffering as it is, is already perfect, would not only a deluded being want to try to fix it? Isn't the idea of fixing it or making it better the product of a delusion?

Well, only a deluded being would continue to do harm to others... not being able to se that he/she in that way is only causing harm to him/her self. But I would agree with you that violence and suffering is perfect, is thusness, why (?), because it is exactly what will make you not to do it.

When we sit change will happen! As we are broken beings zazen will fix you...

[Jundo]

Re: Chöd and other Buddhist approaches to practical demonkeeping

But if things are already perfect as they are, why would we change anything? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it..." So why fix anything that ain't fundamentally broke?

Some cases are more obvious. We must fix the flat tire for our car to be able to go. So we do it, and keep rolling. It's less obvious when it comes to "character flaws" or "personal issues." If my anger is perfect, why utilize a tool to reduce it? If we say, "to reduce harm or suffering," why do that? If this world, as riddled with suffering as it is, is already perfect, would not only a deluded being want to try to fix it? Isn't the idea of fixing it or making it better the product of a delusion? If we are opening, blossoming, to reality as is, if we see the perfection in the gunfire and the child prostitution and the broken glass of this painful world, how can we simultaneously take the guns off the streets, take the child prostitutes to safe havens where they no longer have to be exploited, and sweep up the broken glass? Either it is perfect, it is thus, or it is not. Is it our duty to make this Earth the "Kingdom of Heaven," a place that is kinder and more just, or to let go of the striving and realize that it is already perfect and was all along?

Yes, this is a great Koan, and ultimately words are inadequate. I agree that saying "each is perfectly just what it is" is a less than a perfect way to say it. 8) Still, I do not think this so hard to describe with some clarity.

We can encounter this world from various angles at once, as if seeing it one way out of the right eye, another way out of the left. We can learn to see the world through both eyes at once, or sometimes one or the other one (actually. many eyes and no eye at all)

Time to pull out that old chestnut ... like two sides of a single coin, and then some ...

ACCEPTANCE without ACCEPTANCE
http://www.treeleaf.org/sit-a-long/arch ... tance.html

You say, Steph, that you cannot see this now. But from your descriptions of Shikantaza, I believe you can. There is an abused child and there is a child abuser, and a tragedy that must be prevented by our engaged action, many tears to shed for the suffering. There is a victim and a victimizer who must be stopped, yet too they are also both victims of greed and anger and ignorance. There is also that realm with no separate child to suffer, no cruel adult, no cruelty, no greed, nothing lacking or in need of remedy, no suffering and never was ... all dropped from our dividing mind until a wholeness remains. A Bodhisattva can see this life-world in all these ways, and then some (many eyes, not just two actually, many ways to see life).

All can be seen at once ... often "seen with the ears" as old Buddhists liked to say.

So, what do we fix and what can be left as it is? That's just common sense, I think. We should fix those parts of this me-life-world that cause great harm, that we can fix ... the disease, the poverty, the wars, the anger/greed acted out violently by one person against another. We should fix those things that, in their change, truly make life more healthful and beneficial to self and others (not two or three, by the way).

The rest, optional ... or just let it be.**

Gassho, J

PS - ** Our capitalist, consumerist lifestyle has us convinced we must always improve, always acquire, always fix, always "super size" a lot of stuff that does not need to be ... and we have forgotten how to live simply, not fixing what does not need to be fixed, just letting be, just letting live (ya know ... a simple 'Zen' lifestyle). I am very interested in this short film, and suggest everyone watch it free online (you can debate some of the statistics, but the overall description of how the "conveyor belt" system works in modern society seems about right on ... )

The STORY of STUFF
http://www.storyofstuff.com/

[Jundo]

Re: Chöd and other Buddhist approaches to practical demonkeeping

We can encounter this world from various angles at once ...There is an abused child and there is a child abuser, and a tragedy that must be prevented by our engaged action, many tears to shed for the suffering. There is a victim and a victimizer who must be stopped, yet too they are also both victims of greed and anger and ignorance. There is also that realm with no separate child to suffer, no cruel adult, no cruelty, no greed, nothing lacking or in need of remedy, no suffering and never was ... all dropped from our dividing mind until a wholeness remains. A Bodhisattva can see this life-world in all these ways, and then some (many eyes, not just two actually, many ways to see life).

I came across a poem by Thich Nhat Hanh at the end of the biography of Issan Dorsey (a book I recommend highly, and will talk about on another thread) ...

Issan was someone who had lived all sides of life ... as a drug addict, prostitute, beloved friend and Zen student and teacher, as Bodhisattva to many others who were in need ...all in one life, like many sides of a single coin.

Please Call Me by My True Names
(Thich Nhat Hanh)

Do not say that I will be gone tomorrow,
for even now I still return.

Look deeply: I arrive in each fresh moment
To be a bud on a tender spring branch,
To be tiny bird, with still-fragile wings,
Learning to sing in my new nest,
To be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower,
To be a jewel hiding itself in a stone.

I still arrive, in order to laugh and to cry,
To fear and to hope.
The rhythm of my heart is the birth and death of all that is alive.

I am a mayfly metamorphosing
On the surface of the river.
And I am the bird that swoops down to swallow the mayfly.

I am a frog swimming happily in the clear water of a pond
And I am the grass snake
That silently feeds itself on the frog.

I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones,
My legs as thin as bamboo sticks.
And I am the arms merchant
Selling deadly weapons to Uganda

I am the twelve-year-old girl,
Refugee on a small boat,
Who throws herself into the ocean
After being raped by a sea pirate
And I am the pirate,
My heart not yet capable
Of seeing and loving.

I am a member of the politburo
With plenty of power in my hands
And I am the man who has to pay
His “debt of blood” to my people
Dying slowly in a forced labor camp.

My joy is like Spring, so warm
It makes flowers bloom all over the Earth.
My pain is like a river of tears,
so vast it fills the four oceans.

Please call me by my true names
So I can hear all my cries and laughter at once,
So I can see that my joy and pain are one.

Please call me by my true names,
So I can wake up
And the door of my heart
Can be left open,
The door of compassion.

[AlanLa]

Re: Chöd and other Buddhist approaches to practical demonkeeping

Wow, I missed all the "fun" on this thread. I saw it when it started and wanted to contribute but got too busy, and now I see that the thread has evolved away from the original questions Stephanie had about chod. Allow me to go back to that, as I have dabbled in chod practice. I read about it in one of those buddhist mags (that I am too lazy to go to the next room to dig out so I can reference it), and the article had a sort of do-it-yourself step-by-step approach to follow. I have a few things that really bother me to the point that calling them demons seems entirely appropriate, so I thought after reading the article I might give it a try, but with a twist. But before I explain what I did, let me just say that I viewed this as a just a different way to sit with my issues. I don't recall ever considering that this was somehow inconsistent with my regular zazen practice; it was just an add-on sort of thing.

Anyway, my thinking was that if I was to truly visualize my demon and bring it to life, then I would make an art project out of it. So I sat with my demon to the point I could visualize it, and then I painted what I saw. It was a pretty ugly demon, very minimalist and impressionistic, but it really helped to SEE it (that part of me) in the flesh, so to speak. Then I sat with my demon for a while, fed it according to the article instructions, and watched it transform into something very beautiful that I could also see and then paint, possibly the best painting I have ever done. The result of all this was a painting that I still have in my room, and hidden behind that painting is my original demon painting. When I see one I know the other is also there, and both are with me every day. It was a very powerful process that helped me sit with some of my personal ugliness that I might never have been able to do, at least not in the same way, if I had just practiced zazen. Some time later I repeated the process with another demon of mine, this time using colored pencils, and I now have that (those) drawing(s) hanging in my room also. I fully expect at some point to do the chod process again, although what I do may not fully qualify as traditional chod. No thigh bones or anything stranger in the way I do it than some art supplies, however.

Just a couple more thoughts on chod. For me, all I did was create a better teacher out of my demon. I took something that was ugly that I resisted and turned it into something beautiful that I could embrace, all without ever denying the ugliness. Not one, not two, but something greater than one or the other. While the actual practice (i.e., actions) of chod is certainly not compatible with zazen, I think the essence of both are actually quite compatible. I consider chod to be another tool in my buddhist toolbox, something useful for certain problems. If sometimes dabbling in it makes me a bad zen buddhist (which I don't think anyone is), then I can easily live with that.

Finally, yes, chod is very different and bit odd, but don't get lost in how the different cups are decorated to the point you forget that both hold water just as efficiently. Sometimes there is great utility in using the really elaborate decorative china.

[Jundo]

Re: Chöd and other Buddhist approaches to practical demonkeeping

While the actual practice (i.e., actions) of chod is certainly not compatible with zazen, I think the essence of both are actually quite compatible. I consider chod to be another tool in my buddhist toolbox, something useful for certain problems. If sometimes dabbling in it makes me a bad zen buddhist (which I don't think anyone is), then I can easily live with that.

Finally, yes, chod is very different and bit odd, but don't get lost in how the different cups are decorated to the point you forget that both hold water just as efficiently. Sometimes there is great utility in using the really elaborate decorative china.

Hi Al,

Just to be clearer, I do not want to be taken as disagreeing with you, and we are on the same page. If it works, DO THAT! In any event, it is not for me to decide, and different things will help different people. You are certainly not a "bad Zen Buddhist"!

Nor are people who practice Tantrism "bad Buddhists" ... for some folks certainly get much out of that, and it speaks to many people who need to approach Buddhist teachings in that way.

My standard is merely this ...

Shikantaza may help with or fully cure some of it (it may lessen or allow the full droppiing of the fear, the anger, addiction, depression etc), or it may not, and simply allow us to be "at one" with our flat tires of fear, anger, addiction, etc.

In such latter cases, something more than Shikantaza may be required and ... IF IT IS EFFECTIVE ... I fully support that.

Thus, I do sometimes suggest that people pursue, hand in hand with Shikantaza, a "12 step" program for addiction, anger management classes, medical treatment by a reputable doctor for a physical condition, anti-depression medication (if effective), psychotherapy (if effective), Metta Practice and Nurturing Seeds Practice (if it is helpful) and the like.

Thus, for the same reason, I do NOT suggest that people pursue fortune tellers, quack miracle medical treatments from Tijuana, distance healing, seances, crystal gazing, exorcisms, faith healing, psychotherapy (if not effective and only self-perpetuating), medical treatments cooked up by pharmaceutical companies to sell pills, and anything that is magico-supersticio hocus-pocus bunkum. I mean, even exorcisms and the like might have some "placebo" effect ... so anything might be helpful and therapeutic in some way ... but one is more likely to run into quacks and charlatans than a "cure".

Sometimes it is hard to draw the line between the two categories ... so I leave that to each person.

[AlanLa]

Re: Chöd and other Buddhist approaches to practical demonkeeping

As I said in the post, Jundo, I didn't think so. I just wanted to draw the distinction differently. There are reasons to use our various sets of china (or tools in our tool boxes). But all our plates and bowls and utensils are empty for a reason, and that is to fill them with our life. No matter how you dress it up or down, it's still just this empty/full life, such as it is.

Also, upon further reflection, I probably did chod-lite as art therapy :roll: :lol: but I'm good with that :mrgreen:

[AlanLa]

Re: Chöd and other Buddhist approaches to practical demonkeeping

I finally chased that laziness demon to find that article because this curious demon was bugging me, so which is the worse demon? :twisted: I think this is kind of important. Demons need to be serious, not casual stuff like MY laziness or curiosity. Demons are personal, which means they can vary by person. So laziness might be someone's demon but not someone else's, and so on. That demon has got to be a "real" entity in that person's life, not just some casual laziness and curiosity or whatever. I can't imagine a practice based on demonizing all the various little or even moderate things that hamper a life. Gosh, if it's that bad, you might as well just do zazen. However, the curiosity that killed the cat was probably a serious demon, lol :roll:

Anyway, it was from Tricycle, summer 2008, by Allione, the Chod dude.

[Grizzly]

Re: Chöd and other Buddhist approaches to practical demonkeeping

Hi Al
Thanks for posting your practice with painting the demon.
I think this thread has been useful in that it has expressed the same thing in many ways, hopefully allowing anyone that didn't already see that possible transformations are beyond Chod rituals and verbalisations.
The traditional ritual with all its regalia.
The psycho jargon about working with "sub-personalities".
Painting of inner demons.
Three ways of expressing a fundamentally unknowable change process- each fitting a time, place and temperament.
As the pragmatist I have become- If it works use it...
Rich

[Manatee]

Re: Chöd and other Buddhist approaches to practical demonkeeping

Wow, what a great thread.

Steph, this Chod you speak of seems to nest inside of Shikantaza. It seems like signposts that might be helpful, but not the destination.

I don't know if you remember, but I had loosely quoted Epictetus and said "Treat everyone and everything as a cherished guest, welcomed and prepared for, but not grasped or clung to". It seems that way with "demons", too. "Here we are--- take what you like". Sometimes it seems like these different animistic rituals seem like one person's intimate experience, which they try to codify and dogmatize as an instruction manual for others. "I had some problems, so I called them demons. It worked best for me to animate them and interact with them", etc. So like everyone else has said, if it works, go for it. But I did like what someone had said about everything being "marked with emptiness".

It seems to me that the definition of "guest" is "welcome transient". Everything is a welcome transient? Even some things I could call demons. If they like me to wear certain clothes or say certain things and I can oblige, why not. If that's not in my palette of hospitality tools, so be it.

It also seems to me that Shikantaza itself is the most welcoming posture I can assume. Just sitting, receptively aware, open. Welcome. Those are my demon-welcoming clothes.

I often hear you speak of the rapacity of nature. I would like to say that it is this very rapacity which also creates moments of unbridled and incomparable beauty. But these are merely our desires. Nature just is, for no use. Kind of like zazen.

Sometimes when I think of acceptance-without-acceptance, I have to remind myself that it is not only "me" that has to "do nothing". Look at a baby, who must be taught to become a rapist or killer. Someone "did something" to get to that place. Uh-oh, my typing window is doing that weird thing again, does it do that for anyone else? I'll continue this post below...

[Manatee]

Re: Chöd and other Buddhist approaches to practical demonkeeping

Okay well anyway, Stephanie, I am now working at a nature preserve in Ohio. My daughter visits me here, and she is starting to really wake up in some ways. The other day we talked about something which reminded me of you. She is learning about the difference between being afraid and being aware. For example, we have an aggressive rooster (i.e., a successful rooster at being a rooster) here in our yard and he pecked my daughter. She came in and was very afraid to go back into the yard. This same sort of thing happens with bees, poison ivy, etc etc. But at the same time, there are long, extended moments of bliss such as the times we spend together in a shallow creek that runs through a deep limestone ravine near the house. How can both of these things be connected?

So one day as we were walking down a gravel road with occasional car traffic, engrossed in conversation, I said to her, "Are you afraid of the cars right now?" And she said no. I asked her why, and she said, "Because we can hear them coming." I asked her if we were paying attention for the sounds of them approaching, and she said we were. So we decided that we were BEING AWARE. We weren't afraid, just PAYING ATTENTION.

I reminded her that it is only very recently in evolutionary time, that we have been able to go for long periods of time without worrying about BEING EATEN, or needing to keep up with what we were eating. Think about that! Almost every other creature on the face of this planet has an omnipresent worry of being eaten at any moment. THAT'S AWARE! Not afraid, still non-doing the day, but AWARE. Sometimes my daughter has trouble understanding what I am doing when I meditate, so I told her, I'm just BEING AWARE. In fact, when I have a hard time settling down into zazen, sometimes I will "trick" myself by saying, "What if I were going to die in twenty minutes? What if I knew it? Can I feel it?" If I really sit and contemplate my very real death (which let's be honest, is not some fantasy but a real thing at some point in the future), I fall gratefully into zazen.

And every time I think of that, it reminds me of Stephanie

[sittingzen]

Re: Chöd and other Buddhist approaches to practical demonkeeping

This thread is wonderful. I've learned much reading everyone's perspectives and thoughts. Thank you, Stephanie, for facilitating a rich discussion.

Personally, as a new Zen/Shikintaza student, and only speaking for myself, I like to use Nishijima Roshi's thoughts on the Path of Middle Way:

We can think of life as a road or highway. All roads have their destinations, but from our vantage point on the road, that destination is usually not visible to us. The scenery on both sides of the road is visible, however, and it is often quite interesting and seductive. There are beautiful mountain vistas, forests and rivers which draw our eyes away from the road. There are billboards advertising all kinds of wonderful things. Some promote their products as the ultimate in comfort and enjoyment. Others offer instant fame and success, while still others promise to show us the way to omniscient enlightenment or spiritual bliss.

Almost without realizing it, we find ourselves turning the wheel on the car to the right or left; but the highway of life has no scenic side-roads. On the side of the road there are only potholes and dangerous ravines. If we drive the car into a ditch, it may take a long time to get back on the road again. So the aim of life is simply to stay on the road (or to simply SIT, for me personally).

Although this speaks to The Middle Way, I can apply this to myself in the context of finding confidence in Shikintaza and not being side-tracked by other methods of schools within Buddhism (making note that they are NOT potholes in the example above, but other "directions" on the road to "nowhere", so to speak). The last thing I need is confusion (particularly in studying other Buddhist traditions without proper guidance).

In studying Soto Zen, and Shikintaza, I have Jundo, Taigu, and all of you to share and learn with and from during this journey.

Gassho,

SZ

[Rich]

Re: Chöd and other Buddhist approaches to practical demonkeeping

It's not that the demons just disappear from existence, it's that we learn to not give them so much time and attention. Suffering, old age and death is just the way we are, the demons didn't make that but if you give them power they'll make it seem a lot worse. So just keep trying to come back to the present moment or stay on the road or simply SIT with all the action of life.
/Rich

[Keishin]

Re: Chöd and other Buddhist approaches to practical demonkeeping

I am late to this party! Hellos to all here, my thoughts, such as they are:

the mind is an a maze ing place

it a mazes me all the time

as I get caught in my a maze ment at the extraordinary richness, the dire paucity, the nuanced and the blatant
the preposterous and the hypothesis

so curly, the curlicues of mind

zazen: to my utter dis maze, show me how whispy these hedgerows of thought I am corralled in by

and how these whisps are my fetters

zazen:

guaranteed to un a maze you

(ask for a refund if not completely satisfied)

[Jundo]

Re: Chöd and other Buddhist approaches to practical demonkeeping

Thank you Keishin. You can keep the change.