The Truth About Dogs and Cats

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  • Stephanie

    #46
    Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

    Domesticated dogs and cats are different from wild dogs and cats.

    I would be offended to see a wild animal being kept, and treated, as a pet.

    But domesticated animals would not exist if we did not keep and care for them.

    It strikes me about organizations like PETA that the people involved seem to know very little about animals, and their outrage comes from assuming animals are like humans. I have thought for a long time PETA is not really an organization for animal lovers, but for misanthropists. People who enjoy judging, hating, and offending other people.

    Though you seem to be making a similar objection as I make in the above paragraph, you actually seem to be doing the same thing. It's one thing to be offended by a dog being beaten, or being left chained out back, neglected, underfed; another to be offended by people playing with their pets in ways that cause a mild degree of annoyance to the pet.

    I have watched my fair share of dog (and cat) videos on YouTube. I don't have a pet right now and just watching animals makes me smile. Which I often need at the end of a long, tiring week. And I've seen countless times, people making similar comments as you. Someone will post a cute, light-hearted video of their dog or cat, an animal that is obviously well taken care of and loved, with bright eyes, lively energy, and a shiny coat, doing something funny. And inevitably, someone will post in the comments, "You should be ashamed of abusing your animal like that!" The reasoning being something as obscure as what you just came up with--"They're yawning, so they're clearly anxious--" It's ridiculous on so many levels.

    People in American culture practically worship their pets, pamper them and give them every luxury. And yet it's not enough for some--perhaps they should be massaged daily, and have "pet therapists" to help them work through the "anxiety" their owners make them feel by talking to and playing with them in ways that hurt their self-esteem? Come on. Dogs are resilient. Even horribly abused and neglected dogs can heal and regain trust when put in the care of loving humans. Unlike us, with our precious egos and the ways we nurse grudges, animals just move right on into the next moment.

    I am floored by the number of people who are passionate about "animal rights" who seem to know nothing about animals. PETA's propaganda requires a vast amount of ignorance about animals to be able to subscribe to it, and a willingness to anthropomorphize dramatically and with total faith in one's projections. Being offended or upset by videos such as the above requires a certain amount of projection and a total discomfort witnessing even the slightest discomfort. The world is a tough place, and in order to get through it, you have to at some point put on your big boy (or girl) pants and not expect all human (and human-animal) interaction to involve holding hands and singing "Kumbaya." If you can't take seeing a dog yawn in anxiety while its owner "talks" to it, good God, you might as well seal yourself away in a bunker, because life is going to throw a lot more intense things at you than that.

    There's a reason the "set up" for Joshu's famous MU koan works so well. It's because the layers of abstraction, projection, and investment in thinking that are required to ponder about the Buddha-nature of dogs is so intense it's a clear demonstration of "You're doing it wrong" when it comes to waking up to Reality. Throw all that junk away! Do you want to get to know your dog? Then drop out of your "Speciesism: How to Free Our Oppressed Animal Brethren!" class at University of Colorado, Boulder, and plant a big ol' kiss on your dog's nose! Is he anxious? Is he a Buddha? Does he have a soul? Or Buddha-nature? What does he think about the Republican Party? Does he approve of the work Defenders of Wildlife is doing?

    WOOF!

    er,

    MU!

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    • Rich
      Member
      • Apr 2009
      • 2619

      #47
      Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

      Stephanie, that was good post . Made me laugh. My dog is going to be 16, I should do something special for him like get him a plain hamburger at McDonalds
      _/_
      Rich
      MUHYO
      無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

      https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

      Comment

      • Unmon
        Member
        • Mar 2009
        • 97

        #48
        Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

        let me say this...

        sincere thanks for all of your responses. they seem genuine.

        chet, much thanks for pointing out the perceived egoistic nature of my post(s). i will certainly consider this and make an effort to take it into account in the future.

        stephanie, i'm truly disheartened by your readiness to generalize and dismiss me/my position as a "PETA-type" nit-wit...but i'll consider the possibility that i asked for it. you mentioned something about PETA-types not knowing about animals. again, that's a generalization...but, i will say for me that: 1) i am not afilliated w/ that organization. 2) i AM sympathetic to their cause. 3) i am (and have been for many years) an animal-protection professional. and, 4) i am most certainly concerned with the perfectly scientific understanding of non-human animal behaviour and a wholisitic view of the impact of "their" use/exlpoitation. it seems as though this project is a joke to you...so, if this is is the case, there's nothing left to say.

        rich, your dog will love the mcdonald's...the cow will not...maybe an even exchange...the joke is lame...just an opinion, not offended judging the comment, not the commentor....gassho.

        [trite "zen" adage] gonna go sit with this...no, not really...
        Gassho,
        Tim

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        • disastermouse

          #49
          Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

          To the deer in the field, the wolf is the devil himself.

          That does not really make the wolf a devil though, does it? I tried vegetarianism for four years and it nearly killed me (directly or indirectly). There is an assumed moral superity in your stance that is not justified, IMHO.

          Chet

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          • Unmon
            Member
            • Mar 2009
            • 97

            #50
            Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

            no moral superiority...i can only say: 1) perhaps you didn't have the support and knowledge necessary to maintain your diet, 2) maybe you fall into the small minority of humans strictly dependenant on (some) animal protein for survival, and 3) i'm not advocating an sort of absolutist moral plan...

            the "wolf" and "deer" in your scenario are not analogous to the current situation regarding the human / non-human relationship... nice try.
            Gassho,
            Tim

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            • Rich
              Member
              • Apr 2009
              • 2619

              #51
              Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

              Originally posted by mahakalaugh
              rich, your dog will love the mcdonald's...the cow will not...maybe an even exchange...the joke is lame...just an opinion, not offended judging the comment, not the commentor....gassho.

              [trite "zen" adage] gonna go sit with this...no, not really...
              It was not too long ago that we had a great discussion on this forum on vegetarianism which raised some strong emotions, opinions and positions. I've noticed one of the participants hasn't posted much since. so the only thing I want to say is that my dog is not a vegetarian and I do occasionally treat him to a hamburger. I,m sorry if this offends anyone.
              /Rich
              _/_
              Rich
              MUHYO
              無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

              https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

              Comment

              • disastermouse

                #52
                Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

                Originally posted by mahakalaugh
                no moral superiority...i can only say: 1) perhaps you didn't have the support and knowledge necessary to maintain your diet, 2) maybe you fall into the small minority of humans strictly dependenant on (some) animal protein for survival, and 3) i'm not advocating an sort of absolutist moral plan...

                the "wolf" and "deer" in your scenario are not analogous to the current situation regarding the human / non-human relationship... nice try.
                They are as relates to food sources - humans and canines are both omnivores, neither is strictly carnivorous.

                Also, nice try using the 'you're doing it wrong' approach to my inability to maintain health on a vegetarian diet.

                Chet

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                • Unmon
                  Member
                  • Mar 2009
                  • 97

                  #53
                  Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

                  haha..NOOOO...not "you're doing it wrong"...well, not completely at least...i left myself an "out" in the "maybe you need it" clause... :lol:

                  regarding the wolves/deer/humans/(all other non-humans)-thing.... that's a HUGE "can of worms" you're opening bro... let's start with 1)think in terms of degree/continuum (ie, wolves are somewhat "more" carnivorous than humans...i'll be glad to back it up with science if you like) and 2) think in terms of necessity v. convenience/preference/conditioning/blah blah blah ad nauseum...

                  can we take this all over to the other thread...i'm lazy...sorry....
                  Gassho,
                  Tim

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                  • Unmon
                    Member
                    • Mar 2009
                    • 97

                    #54
                    Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

                    btw, rich...no offense taken (not by me at least)...and i hope not by anyone else either.

                    i hope whomever may have scaled back on posting will find it in themselves to jump in anew!!!
                    Gassho,
                    Tim

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                    • JohnsonCM
                      Member
                      • Jan 2010
                      • 549

                      #55
                      Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

                      First, I'd like to appologize to everyone. I started this thread with the intent of gaining some wisdom or understanding around a question I had. It's kind of gotten away from there since then. Here's my two cents for what it's worth.

                      There seems to be alot of arguing now, though it's thinly veiled with a science teacher's vocabulary. I've noticed that the more heated the argument has gotten, that the words have gotten bigger and longer right along with it. I've also noticed a lot of "-ism's" being thrown around. As for cats and dogs and the like, I think that they show their original nature all the time. Perfectly cats and dogs. As to keeping cats and dogs as pets, well, that's what we do. Abusing a pet is wrong, sure, no one would deny that. But a dog is completely and wholly a dog whether it's wild or domesticated. That's the situation it's in. As for vegitarianism, well, the Buddha himself wasn't a vegitarian. Also, things that we should not eat, are made so we can't eat them. That's why we don't have rocks for dinner; and if we weren't meant to eat animals, then why are they made of meat? And you can break out your science books and biology notebooks all you want and bandy back and forth at who is right about the carnivorous behavior of wolves and the availability of food for humans not being equal and all that until the cows come home, and it won't really mean anything. The fact that one person is a vegitarian and another is an omnivore means nothing, we are all the same anyway and all connected. No separation. Not between vegan and meat-eater, not between you and me, not between me and my cat Kunai.

                      By the way, Kunai came in from outside and I asked him if he was happy with how I treat him, and (being an animal himself) what he thought about the fact that I eat meat. He just walked right past me and to his food bowl like I never even said a word. Perfect cat. Terrible listener, though.
                      Gassho,
                      "Heitetsu"
                      Christopher
                      Sat today

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                      • disastermouse

                        #56
                        Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

                        I also want to note that I don't mean to offend anyone either. I just know from firsthand experience that you can box yourself into some pretty neurotic ethical corners using the Dharma as the perfect excuse...so sometimes when I think I'm seeing that, I want to speak up. Sometimes I'm wrong, but I want to put it out there so that some rather common pitfalls can be avoided by people new and NOT SO NEW to the path. Maybe it's not my place and my sense of confidence comes across as rather cocky - but it's really just a matter of 'type as I think it'.

                        Chet

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                        • Stephanie

                          #57
                          Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

                          You make some good points, Christopher.

                          I want to emphasize that, like Chet, while I enjoy this kind of sprawling discussion and debate about ethics, nature, etc., my main concern is over self-righteousness and presenting personal opinions and preferences as Dharma or ultimate truth.

                          I respect vegetarians and vegans and really could care less what people think about the fact I eat meat. I have no guilt or anxiety about eating meat whatsoever, though I did in the past. I've worked through all that and I've yet to find any new information that has made me re-think my return to eating animal flesh. I don't know what the reason is, but I've always gravitated to meat--my grandmother tells me I begged to eat raw hamburger when I was 2 and through my middle and later childhood loved steak more than all other food. I've watched raw nature documentaries from an early age and the natural cycle of predation does not disturb me. To witness predators in action is sublime and I find the sight of raw meat appetizing. I find it beautiful and absolutely natural, if beautiful in the terrible and awe-inspiring way of nature. If I got to pick my own death when the time came, I could think of fewer more noble or sublime deaths than in the jaws of a bear or lion! And for crows to eat what's left. Better than to get shot for no reason and interred in an ecologically destructive manner.

                          I enjoy discussing this topic because I have thought and lived it so much. I feel deeply connected to the wild, to animals, to predatory species especially. But my concern as far as Dharma goes is that people get righteous about their moral stances and cling to those as Dharma. I did the same thing and it held me back in my practice; it made me suffer and kept me mired in short-sightedness. There is terrible guilt and anger that goes along with passionate belief in a moral position. Dharma is clear seeing, is recognition that we don't know what we think we know, and freedom to let go of our concepts. Moral self-righteousness goes in the exact opposite direction of truth and freedom. "Feelings aren't facts"--passion does not necessarily equal truth. This has been a hard lesson for me to learn, and one with which I continue to struggle.

                          I may be "wrong" about meat eating, animal rights, pets, etc. Maybe there is some cosmic moral code I'm violating and will wake up in hell when I'm dead. But I don't think that will happen. So in the meantime, "Carne diem"--"Meat the day!" :mrgreen:

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                          • JohnsonCM
                            Member
                            • Jan 2010
                            • 549

                            #58
                            Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

                            I can understand what you guys are saying about others being cocky and self righteous, and I've been guilty of that more times than I care to count. And please don't take this the wrong way here, especially since you can probably find lots of examples where I've done this too, but there is the tendancy to push back when someone else is being cocky and self righteous. It's end result is almost always conflict. I know that sometimes a stern tone and raised voice can be an appropriate means, but I think we should all (myself SOOOOO included) remember that when we drop the ego, when we stand in the Dharma and look out, the time and manner in which to stand one's ground and become firm should be clear, and that we should try not to confuse that moment with our passions and anger rising because of someone who is simply misdirected in the Dharma.


                            P.S. This gentle reminder brought to you by numberless personal failures at keeping this in mind. But, hey, I'll just have to keep "practicing" :roll:
                            Gassho,
                            "Heitetsu"
                            Christopher
                            Sat today

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                            • disastermouse

                              #59
                              Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

                              Originally posted by JohnsonCM
                              I can understand what you guys are saying about others being cocky and self righteous, and I've been guilty of that more times than I care to count. And please don't take this the wrong way here, especially since you can probably find lots of examples where I've done this too, but there is the tendancy to push back when someone else is being cocky and self righteous. It's end result is almost always conflict. I know that sometimes a stern tone and raised voice can be an appropriate means, but I think we should all (myself SOOOOO included) remember that when we drop the ego, when we stand in the Dharma and look out, the time and manner in which to stand one's ground and become firm should be clear, and that we should try not to confuse that moment with our passions and anger rising because of someone who is simply misdirected in the Dharma.


                              P.S. This gentle reminder brought to you by numberless personal failures at keeping this in mind. But, hey, I'll just have to keep "practicing" :roll:
                              The main point here though is to not pretend the Dharma is on your side. The Dharma is not on your side - the Dharma is on 'no-one's' side (Yeah, double-meaning silliness, I know). I don't pretend that the Dharma is on my side - I have zero problem with people who can successfully be vegetarians choosing to live that way. But it is not necessarily the ethical high-ground that some people seem to make it out to be.

                              Chet

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                              • Rich
                                Member
                                • Apr 2009
                                • 2619

                                #60
                                Re: The Truth About Dogs and Cats

                                One of my ideals is the balanced state so I am a fan of yin/yang. Eating too much meat causes a tight mind and acid body, too little meat or protein causes a spaced out mind and alcaline body. The ideal is moderation and balance. Some days I don't eat meat so you can call me a vegetarian on those days One more point- in my lifetime the earth's population has increased from about 2B to almost 7B - I think I read somewhere that all the people who ever lived prior to 1900 totaled 2B - so I think population growth is the number 1 social problem.
                                /Rich
                                _/_
                                Rich
                                MUHYO
                                無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

                                https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

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