Buddhists and their teachers

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

In fact, the problem with Western Zen students these days may be the opposite ... little patience, short term loyalty, too much arguing and "I know better" attitude, too much in their own head, throwing away too many traditions, arguing and debating everything like those talking heads on Fox News. I see that a lot! Here.

We need to find the Middle Way on these issues too.

Gassho, Jundo (and just agree with everything I say on these questions) 8) 8)

I believe this is a true problem. Too many damn parrots regurgitating self help books and Zen texts. Many times I read a thread where a student asks the teacher a question and then
argues with the answer. Another phenomenon of this same ilk is when the question is asked of the teacher then several laypersons wade in on the subject offering personal opinion --- then in some other post I'll read how these same laysters are struggling with finding time and/or motivation to put their asses on a cushion or visit a Zen center. I always think if these "students" quit answering every post on the internet and go sit they might actually accomplish something.

There's nothing wrong with flat-out arguing - and a teacher in that style can usually do quite well with it. Some may even encourage it. The point is that teachers and students may have to be correctly matched as that goes.

The other thing, it's perfectly okay to argue as long as you're willing to go where the other person is as well - at least at some point. Sometimes I resist going there at first, but eventually I get there with the other person to at least some degree. It helps to remember that 'God is not on your side'. The thing is, by the time I do get there, it's real. Some illusion or barrier in me, some egoic clinging, has been eroded a little bit - and it rarely re-emerges, and if it does, it's not as solid or as immovable.

Chet

[Hans]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Hi folks,

loads of very insightful posts here. Thanks for all the contributions. I personally do not have a problem with arguing with a teacher per se, however from my experience it's just amazing how much our consumerist culture has influenced me and others like me to always want to be able to buy, participate and argue on the same level as others as soon as one gets started (or literally buys into) a certain form of spiritual endeavour. A lot of Japanese people with Post-graduate degrees in Buddhist studies would possibly say that they don't know much about buddhism, whilst a lot of westerners feel that they have something meaningful to contribute after only a few years of sitting and having only a superficial understanding of the territory they are referring to (both intellectually and non-intellectually). And no, this is no cultural prejudice but rather my personal experience. I guess , as was stated before, trying to find a good balance between strict authoritarian approaches and "we're all the same and all we say has the same value" might be good practice.

Gassho,

Hans

[Taigu]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Thank you Hans.


gassho

Taigu

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Hi folks,

loads of very insightful posts here. Thanks for all the contributions. I personally do not have a problem with arguing with a teacher per se, however from my experience it's just amazing how much our consumerist culture has influenced me and others like me to always want to be able to buy, participate and argue on the same level as others as soon as one gets started (or literally buys into) a certain form of spiritual endeavour. A lot of Japanese people with Post-graduate degrees in Buddhist studies would possibly say that they don't know much about buddhism, whilst a lot of westerners feel that they have something meaningful to contribute after only a few years of sitting and having only a superficial understanding of the territory they are referring to (both intellectually and non-intellectually). And no, this is no cultural prejudice but rather my personal experience. I guess , as was stated before, trying to find a good balance between strict authoritarian approaches and "we're all the same and all we say has the same value" might be good practice.

Gassho,

Hans

I don't think it's that we're more consumptive that's causing this, we've always been consumptive...I think it's the idea that 'the perfect exposition' of the Dharma is possible (or that the Dharma is some sort of perfect theory)...and hence, when your teacher says something that disagrees with something you read/heard/absorbed elsewhere, the conflict causes dissonance and arguing is an outlet for that. This is natural to an incomplete introduction to Dharma - but in times previous, the access to seemingly conflicting points of view and styles was very limited. Not so much anymore. In essence, there's just too darned much to consume from too many sources before one's own understanding is mature.

I think it's hard to have faith in your teacher because your teacher is no longer THE primary source of your input regarding the Dharma anymore - and so it's harder to privilege him or her long enough to just accept the teaching (which in the best of cases is immediate and relevant to your particular practice) long enough that you have your own deeper understanding of the Dharma. At that point, you can hear two seemingly contradictory statements about 'the Dharma' and see how both are true (and in an ultimate sense, necessarily incomplete).

Chet

[Taigu]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Obviously, Chet, you may sit a bit longer and reflect. Your ideas are brilliant but...




Take care


gassho


Taigu

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Obviously, Chet, you may sit a bit longer and reflect. Your ideas are brilliant but...




Take care


gassho


Taigu

And your lack is equally....well, not brilliant - but similarly silence inducing! All I posted was an invitation to a possible cause so that maybe we can guard against what is a natural tendency.

So...maybe you should reflect a little bit and maybe earn your keep?

Just sayin'... I don't quite have enough trust that you're not full of shit yet.


Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

There's nothing wrong with flat-out arguing - and a teacher in that style can usually do quite well with it. Some may even encourage it. The point is that teachers and students may have to be correctly matched as that goes.

I agree, Chet, that there is nothing wrong with teacher and student wrestling, challenging and being challenged, pushing and pulling and knocking walls down ... but there is a qualitative difference there from the situation with folks who are too much up in themselves, in their own head, ears closed and mouth open, thinking that they are the second coming of the Sixth Patriarch as yet unrecognized, the only judge of what is authentic (all while usually still living in their mother's basement). These folks are all over the Zen blogosphere, and they pop in and out of our Sangha from time to time (usually getting out after judging that we are not "authentic" enough here to fit their pre-established image).

Likewise, there are the folks who Hans alludes to, and the related group of "spiritual materialists" who shop around and shop around for a teacher who they find pleasing. (they complain about the teachings which they don't like ... as if choosing among dishes they prefer at a fashionable restaurant, or whether to have a massage or do tai chi at the spa).

Then there are the folks who are searching for what they imagine to be "a spiritual experience" and "performance of miracles", and are disappointed at how "mundane and ordinary" this form of Zen is (because, frankly, they are missing the ultimate spiritual experience and miracle that is to be found in the 'ordinary' right before their eyes, and their eyes too).

And don't even get me started on the "Dharma Combat" folks. I get an e-mail at least once a month from some kid who wants to prove he is the "fastest gun in town" so throws some Koan at me (Dharma Combat is used in some corners of Rinzai Zen, but is not so common in modern Soto Zen) ... so, he will toss "Why did Bodhidharma come from the East" or something at me. I will usually write back something like, "I don't know, you'd better ask Bodhidharma. Would you like his e-mail address?". :roll:

There ... I'm done complaining and heading to bed. :twisted: Mina (Mrs. Jundo) is having a bit of neck surgery tomorrow, so I need to be at the hospital early. Maybe I will argue with the doctor and tell him how to perform the operation. :?

Gassho, Jundo

PS - Just sayin'... I don't quite have enough trust that you're not full of shit yet.

Chet, that is certainly not Taigu's problem. :wink:

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

There's nothing wrong with flat-out arguing - and a teacher in that style can usually do quite well with it. Some may even encourage it. The point is that teachers and students may have to be correctly matched as that goes.

I agree, Chet, that there is nothing wrong with teacher and student wrestling, challenging and being challenged ... but there is a qualitative difference from the situation with folks who are too much up in themselves, in their own head, ears closed and mouth open, thinking that they are the second coming of the Sixth Patriarch as yet unrecognized, the only judge of what is authentic (all while usually still living in their mother's basement). There folks are all over the Zen blogosphere, and they pop in and out of our Sangha from time to time (usually getting out after judging that we are not "authentic" enough here to fit their pre-established image).

Likewise, there are the folks who Hans alludes to, and the related group of "spiritual materialists" who shop around and shop around for a teacher who they find pleasing. (they complain about the teachings which they don't like ... as if complaining about a bad dish at a restaurant). Then there are the folks who are searching for what they imagine to be "a spiritual experience" and "performance of miracles", and are disappointed at how "mundane and ordinary" this form of Zen is (because, frankly, they are missing the ultimate spiritual experience and miracle that is to be found in the 'ordinary' right before their eyes).

And don't even get me started on the "Dharma Combat" folks. I get an e-mail at least once a month from some kid who wants to prove he is the "fastest gun in town" so throws some Koan at me (Dharma Combat is used in some corners of Rinzai Zen, but is not so common in modern Soto Zen) ... so, he will toss "Why did Bodhidharma come from the East" or something at me. I will usually write back something like, "I don't know, you'd better ask Bodhidharma. Would you like his e-mail address?". :roll:

There ... I'm done complaining and heading to bed. :twisted: Mina (Mrs. Jundo) is having a bit of neck surgery tomorrow, so I need to be at the hospital early. Maybe I will argue with the doctor and tell him how to perform the operation. :?

Gassho, Jundo

Yeah, I think I caught myself doing a little bit of what you're talking about in the thread right above yours. LOL!

Still, too many teachers coast and don't really....well, teach.

Chet

[Taigu]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Thank you Chet...

Still, too many students talk and don't really...well, study.

gassho


Taigu

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Thank you Chet...

Still, too many students talk and don't really...well, study.

gassho


Taigu

Yeah, I do that - don't I? LOL! I was too ego-bound to hear the lesson the first time, Taigu. I'm sorry.

Gassho

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Equally unhelpful. Are NEITHER of you two going to earn your keep? Should we throw you out of the temple, or can you say something worthwhile?

Nah. I don't get paid for this job, admission is free. Quality wise, you only get what you pay for.

(on the other hand ... the best things in life are free too)

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Equally unhelpful. Are NEITHER of you two going to earn your keep? Should we throw you out of the temple, or can you say something worthwhile?

Nah. I don't get paid for this job, admission is free. Quality wise, you only get what you pay for.

(on the other hand ... the best things in life are free too)

I caught myself mid-stride - didn't think to leave my stupidity up since I caught it in the middle of an edit.

Taigu,

Am I to assume this means you think I should no longer post here? It is likely to be more of the same.

Chet

[Taigu]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Stay the same, Chet, the way you are is great. Post, as you wish.
Allow me to post back. And sometimes not agree with your views.
Both you and and me know all too well that... it doesn't really matter.

Gassho again, brother


taigu

[scott]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Thank you Hans.

gassho

Taigu

I'm getting lost here. I could just take it all at an intuitive level but I assume you're trying to say something with verbal meaning, and I'm missing it -- too clever for me. Could you be a little more explicit please?

Thank you ... Scott

[Taigu]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Hi Scott,

I am just saying thank you because I agree with Hans. As simple as that. There is nothing clever, nothing special. To my taste the little game of posting is sometimes far too verbal, far too wordy or complicated. Most of the time I refrain from posting or boil it down to the very minimum. People generally post too quickly. This is something i would like to discuss with Jundo and invite people to wait.



Thank you for for your question.

gassho


Taigu