Buddhists and their teachers

[Yellow Pine]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

American culture is predicated on continual grasping after consumer products. It seems to carry over very well into the online style of discourse....grasp, challenge, grasp, challenge, grasp, challenge.

Tom

As opposed to some other ideal culture?

Strong support. Quiz: in which culture do people spend more on clothes: urban Japan or urban USA?

No other ideal cultures out there...unless there's one without authority issues.

I would assume Japan would spend more. Italian women spend the most...

Taigu, Jundo...thank you for your patience and compassion, which, after last week must be in short supply as the aftershocks seem to rumble thru this thread.

Tom

[Rich]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Hi folks,

loads of very insightful posts here. Thanks for all the contributions. I personally do not have a problem with arguing with a teacher per se, however from my experience it's just amazing how much our consumerist culture has influenced me and others like me to always want to be able to buy, participate and argue on the same level as others as soon as one gets started (or literally buys into) a certain form of spiritual endeavour. A lot of Japanese people with Post-graduate degrees in Buddhist studies would possibly say that they don't know much about buddhism, whilst a lot of westerners feel that they have something meaningful to contribute after only a few years of sitting and having only a superficial understanding of the territory they are referring to (both intellectually and non-intellectually). And no, this is no cultural prejudice but rather my personal experience. I guess , as was stated before, trying to find a good balance between strict authoritarian approaches and "we're all the same and all we say has the same value" might be good practice.

Gassho,

Hans

I think intellectual knowledge of Buddhism is only useful when motivating you to practice Buddhism. It always amazes me when a beginner 'having only a superficial understanding of the territory ' says something that inspires me, teaches me. Whether my opinions are based on experience or inexperience, I'm always trying to drop them so I don't become too arrogant.
/Rich

[AlanLa]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

And AlanLa, what kind of teacher would want students to simply swallow quietly everything that a teacher said or that they read in a textbook?

Stephanie, sometimes this is exactly what students should do, and sometimes it is exactly what they should not do, but generally it is somewhere in between. Interacting with the material is one thing, arguing the ultimate reality of one person's experience over thousands of years of collective wisdom or knowledge is something else entirely. I want my doctor to swallow the whole medical textbook, despite all the old wives tales about medicine he grew up with, and then I want him to interact with medicine to make it, and me, better. As a student of zen, I believe it is entirely appropriate for me to both swallow what Jundo and Taigu have to say AND interact with it despite all the Christianity I grew up with. If one of them tells me that I have more to learn and my first thought is Screw you or That's wrong, then that is probably not my best thought. The act of making wisdom and knowledge personal shouldn't be disrespectful or negate others' perspectives. I believe interacting with them in a respectful manner works better for all.

It also occurs to me that sometimes people argue different points because we find it really hard to be able to hold two things true at once. For example acceptance without acceptance is really tricky when you are sure that the world is a duality, which of course it is and isn't :twisted: It's a lot easier to say I'm right and you're wrong than it is to work through the difference, but it is exactly that working through the difference where all the value lies. And that working through the difference is best done respectfully.

The above is what works best for me and most people I know, but there are individual differences on this and that's fine too. Thanks for sharing yours.

[Jundo]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

In the East it is more about collectivism, and I think that makes for less rubbing up against people in difficult ways, not that it doesn't happen, just that the way it is handled is different, quieter.

I think the readiness to trust one's own experience over pronouncements from authority figures, and to question what one is told, if that is indeed a "Western" tendency, is a strength, not a weakness. ... what kind of teacher would want students to simply swallow quietly everything that a teacher said or that they read in a textbook? Education isn't about storing up information, it's about learning how to think and analyze for oneself, to entertain different perspectives. Which requires, demands, the ability to question and challenge.

Ah, there is a Middle Way here ... which need not be a "namby-pampy, tepid, fence sitting" way, but more a skillful time to do this, a skillful time not to do that. There is a time to add salt to the broth, and a time not to do so. Both are necessary.

I think Alan said it nicely for me ...

And AlanLa, what kind of teacher would want students to simply swallow quietly everything that a teacher said or that they read in a textbook?

Stephanie, sometimes this is exactly what students should do, and sometimes it is exactly what they should not do, but generally it is somewhere in between. Interacting with the material is one thing, arguing the ultimate reality of one person's experience over thousands of years of collective wisdom or knowledge is something else entirely. I want my doctor to swallow the whole medical textbook, despite all the old wives tales about medicine he grew up with, and then I want him to interact with medicine to make it, and me, better.

Also, this cannot be said ... and not said ... enough ...

It also occurs to me that sometimes people argue different points because we find it really hard to be able to hold two things true at once. For example acceptance without acceptance is really tricky when you are sure that the world is a duality, which of course it is and isn't :twisted:

Gassho, J

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Wow. First off - lots of 'teacher-pleasing' going on in this thread. Everybody wants to please teacher, to get an 'A+' - it's natural, normal, and probably not conscious - but boy is it going on here.

Secondly, there's very little that I argue about with Jundo or Taigu - hell, that's why I'm here and not somewhere else. For the vast majority of things, I've got no beef with either of them - in fact, I'm immensely grateful to have such teachers - truly - and not only that, but to have a place to practice at all that I feel part of - that's not typical for me. I really connect here...and I don't really connect anywhere - don't let myself connect or know how to connect in most places.

Third - it was touching to see Steph running to my defense - we should all have such loyal friends. But in this case, I have actually turned around and accepted that Taigu is right! Not about my personality in general, because even if I wanted to change that, there's really no point in trying. It's hopeless, and more than a little self-loathing. I've been to 'self-loathing-ville' and I think I stayed long enough to see everything I want to see. I'm probably always going to be loud, off-the-cuff, brash, and at times a little offensive. Certainly, I have no skill at tact - but that's not even what Taigu was trying to bring to my attention, I don't think. I come off as a know-it-all here, and there are aspects to the way I communicate that imply that I'm talking down to others - as though I am not like them. I see that. It's not really my intention, but maybe that's unconscious on my part too. Certainly, there's an aspect of 'I see things you don't' or just basic critical angles in my dealings with others - along with a general dismissal of things that I don't really find all that important.

If Taigu's criticism is that I give way too much weight to my own opinions and not enough to others - well, that's true! I usually come around after a little while and a lengthy debate, but it's GOT to be annoying to just about everybody that my instinctive response to something to which I disagree is a flat-out dismissal of the opinion or point. Like I said, if we debate it for a little while, I usually start to come around to at least giving the viewpoint the respect it deserves - and sometimes I am convinced and come around full circle...but I'll fight you all the way there with the implicit stance of dismissal.

I also think that maybe Taigu was telling me 'Hey dumbass, stop talking like you're something special, because you're not.' In this case, it's not something I do on purpose or am even really aware that I do - but I have to admit - I do it. Inherent to seeing what looks like a lot of blind idiots stumbling in the dark is to become desensitized to the fact that, in many ways, you yourself are also a blind idiot in a lot more ways than you aren't. And becoming a less-blind idiot is unlikely to happen the more you focus on what potentially blinder, more idiotic people are doing that you don't think you do anymore. Actually, you're probably not less-blind - you may be just differently blind. I don't see what I don't see - and I think Taigu was trying to point out that there is, in fact, a whole lot that I don't see. And I sure as hell am not going to see it as long as I'm overly focused on all the things that others don't see - and at the same time, rather dismissive of the very idea that there's something they may see that I don't.

Or...well, maybe I've fucked up what Taigu was trying to tell me. He is rather cryptic. And French. That probably doesn't help either.

Chet

[Dosho]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Wow. First off - lots of 'teacher-pleasing' going on in this thread. Everybody wants to please teacher, to get an 'A+' - it's natural, normal, and probably not conscious - but boy is it going on here.

Care to provide an example? I don't see it, but as I said before, that's nothing new.

If you can't, I might just have to decide that you are full of it.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Taigu]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

I would totally go along with Jundo and say that, of course, a teacher doesn't require the student to always agree. But indeed to experience, try, make the thing alive in his or her life. And that takes a lot of questioning.To be able to hold both, acceptance and doubt in one go, one word and one breath is tricky. So many of us tend to shift from one to another ( I am no exception to this, duality is my daily bread).

You right Stephanie, I have quite a dislike for agrressive behaviour and strong words, maybe I am getting too old for this, or had too much in my face in my career as a teacher. I just think things can be said in a balanced tone of voice.Most of the time, Loud is not necessary.

Thank you Chet for your post because it also helps me to understand how things work for you. Cryptic... sure enough. Well, some people find my prose quite clear, some others don't. If you listen to Jundo, you will find great clarity, sharpness and precision. Great knowledge too. Jundo is on Manjushri side, the sword and clarity of wisdom. This is his style. I am the other guy, more poetic, fluid, quite fond of koans actually, more the Kannon side, dirty sometimes, ordinary. Two ways to convey the same basic teaching and speak to people.

As to being French, I take no offense but I would like to tell you thatTaigu- Froggy has been working and thinking in English for more than twenty five years, and if spelling is certainly faulty at times, it is not altogether that bad :wink: .


gassho


Taigu

[Jundo]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

... and if spelling is certainly faulty at times, it is not altogether that bad :wink: .

Actually, better than most Americans ... given our school systems. 8)

(you see ... everything I write, I'm trying to please Taigu) :wink:

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Taigu,

It was meant as a goodhearted jab. As if to say, 'who understands the French anyway?'

There may be times when you want me to do something or look at something specific and subtlety will be lost on me then.

But there are times I think where you seem to be seeking just to awaken the mind and plant a small seed - and you do have that effect on me when you are sparse or poetic. If you drop a hint and I don't get it, it's because it got lost in my messy mind. Maybe I didn't or couldn't allow enough space for it to get rooted because it just got blown away by the very next thing. It may feel like I'm especially dense or careless and it may be frustrating. I think I'll make an effort to make more time before I respond to posts like those now that I'm understanding that it may be helpful.

I really do appreciate you guys! For some reason I have a very hard time with trust in this one area. I think that for so long, there wasn't anyone with whom to share this practice and so I became very independent. Even though I have faith in you and Jundo (a lot more than I express), some part of me is reluctant to give up any of that independence. In the earlier days of my practice when there was no one of like mind around, I was constantly defending what seems, without personally experiencing it, to be a very strange thing.

I am used to being misunderstood and I think I haven't been able to realize that some of your critique is NOT a misunderstanding of me but an attempt to point out to me the incompleteness of my view.

Chet

[Taigu]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Chet,

Imperfect as I am, I do share the same reluctance to listen. Maybe that's what makes me so good at spotting it in others We are all working on it...

gassho

Taigu

[disastermouse]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Wow. First off - lots of 'teacher-pleasing' going on in this thread. Everybody wants to please teacher, to get an 'A+' - it's natural, normal, and probably not conscious - but boy is it going on here.

Care to provide an example? I don't see it, but as I said before, that's nothing new.

If you can't, I might just have to decide that you are full of it.

Gassho,
Dosho

You're the example, Dosho.

Chet

[scott]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

I would totally go along with Jundo and say that, of course, a teacher doesn't require the student to always agree. But indeed to experience, try, make the thing alive in his or her life. And that takes a lot of questioning.

I guess it's not about questioning, it's about how questions arise. If they are humble, consecrated, open, bodhicitta-based, growthful ... superb. If they are defending, self-dulling, avoiding reality, arising out of mental habit ... not so superb, time for the stick.

[Dosho]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Wow. First off - lots of 'teacher-pleasing' going on in this thread. Everybody wants to please teacher, to get an 'A+' - it's natural, normal, and probably not conscious - but boy is it going on here.

Care to provide an example? I don't see it, but as I said before, that's nothing new.

If you can't, I might just have to decide that you are full of it.

Gassho,
Dosho

You're the example, Dosho.

Chet

No teacher pleasing was being attempted...I'm just that lame and goody two shoes. :lol: And my post about you and Stephanie was genuine...I wish I did understand you both, but I don't and I wish I had a friend who had my back the way you do for each other. My loss.

[AlanLa]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Teacher pleasing here??? Oh yes! If only I could get Jundo to do it more often :twisted: :lol: :wink: :mrgreen:

[Shogen]

Re: Buddhists and their teachers

Hey Chet,
I didn't want to let this post slid by without acknowledging that both Jundo and Taigu are gentlemen perhaps better said gentle-men or just gentle. They are very refreshing in a society with more than its share of self serving in your face skeptics. For all they do at Treeleaf they receive 0 pay and accept 0 contributions. While disagreement and questioning are certainly required in our practice it can be done with kindness and understanding.
Oh yeah by the way I've dealt with my share of hard ass in your face attitudes while running a trucking company. Just in case you're looking for what the f..k do I know credentials about the difference between hard asses and gentlemen.
Now I can get back to practicing my bowing.
Gassho, Shogen