Zafu and zabuton?

[anista]

Hi,

I've tried searching the forum for the answer to this question, but couldn't find anything. If you know of such a thread, please point me in the direction to it.

People in zen talk about zafu and zabuton all the time, like they are mandatory. Are they? I never use either, mostly I sit directly on the floor, preferably on a mat though. I understand that some people may want to use a zafu for example to get lifted up a bit, so that the knees are touching the ground, and using the zabuton for a softer padding for the knees, but otherwise? Are there any special symbolism in using them? Is it preferred to use them even if one has no need? I mean, how does one instruct newcomers in the matter?

I have been involved with a local sangha a while back, but I never thought about it then. I just used the zafu and zabuton when in the zendo, because they were there, and everybody else used them . Anyway, I have been into zazen for a long while, and I have had my posture checked so that should be OK. I'm also into yoga, so the posture isn't a problem. More interested in the philosophical side, so to speak, or when it started to show up in history, etc.

Maybe not the most important question perhaps, one could do zazen everywhere and anytime, but I'm still curious.

Thanks,

[chicanobudista]

Re: Zafu and zabuton?

Hi,

I've tried searching the forum for the answer to this question, but couldn't find anything. If you know of such a thread, please point me in the direction to it.

Actually, there have too many on this forum. :mrgreen:

Here is one:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2125&p=30402&hilit=zafu+postur e#p30402

[anista]

Re: Zafu and zabuton?

Hi,

I've tried searching the forum for the answer to this question, but couldn't find anything. If you know of such a thread, please point me in the direction to it.

Actually, there have too many on this forum. :mrgreen:

Here is one:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2125&p=30402&hilit=zafu+postur e#p30402

Thanks! I've looked at that thread, but it doesn't quite answer my question (or maybe it does, and I'm just missing it ). I wondered specifically about the zafu and zabuton, not correct posture or something like that, which is something you can achieve without a zafu, no?

Every zen teacher I've met, and every homepage on teh interwebs I visit, mention that little pillow and that little mat, but are they mentioned e.g. in the early suttas or sutras? If not, where did this tradition come from? (not saying that everything has to be mentioned in the suttas/sutras - I am really just curious!)

Why emphasize the zafu and zabuton, why not use them as "tools to help your zazen when needed" (e.g. if you're not used to the lotus posture, if your knees doesn't reach the ground, etc., etc.). Apparently they are important, judging from the number of times they are mentioned - that's why I am interested in the 'philosophy' of the zafu and zabuton. If there's not a philosophy, i.e., they are just tools to help you, nothing special, then why does everybody emphasize exactly these two tools? Are they used in Theravada schools as well? Are they used in all Mahayana schools?

Maybe this has been answered before. My search skillz are somewhat incomplete.

[Shohei]

Re: Zafu and zabuton?

Hiya

EDIT* LOL missed the bit about WHY historically...lol my bad. Skip this if youd like...just an opinion followed by speculation - er guess work XD!

For this guy (so that means little really ) - I began sitting on a doubled over pillow on a folded up blanket for awhile then made my own zafu and zabuton. The zabuton is easier on the knees then the floor or a thin mat.
That said got rid of mine as it was home made and very lumpy after i incorrectly washed it. It held one knee up the the other dipped way down throwing me off balance and causing fatigue/strain in any long sits. Im thin sheet to keep the zafu and robe off the floor.

From what I have experienced the zafu or any cushion just helps even out weight distribution, plants the knees - if so flexible - when in cross-legged sitting, on the floor firmly and raises the butt up putting the weight forward - a very stable tripod... comfy for long sits and natually straightens/centers the spine with out alot of you straining to do so. Also seems to help prevent some circulation issues for me.
I'm sure there are more reasons than what I am saying. But basically its for longevity, comfort, posture and stability.

For historical references though... I think sitting right on the ground was cold, hard and dirty or hot hard and dirty and so... a mat...keep ur stuff clean. a zabuton came to keep stuff clean and in the colder climates a bit of insulation?

Gassho
Shohei

[Taigu]

Re: Zafu and zabuton?

Hi Anista,

Anyway, I have been into zazen for a long while, and I have had my posture checked so that should be OK

Well...There is a very good reason to use the zafu or any cushion that does the job, it is precisely to raise the hips a bit, ease up the release of the knees and help to keep the natural curve of the spine. In fact, even if it is thin, and sometimes it can be ( one has to explore and find out what fits), you should always use a form of zafu. The historical Buddha sat on a mat made of dry grass. The issue is that in the West zafus tend to be quite thick to help people' s sitting. I would strongly advise you to experiment in order to find out what suits you the best. You may also try a cushion made of seeds instead of kapock. A zabuton is not necessary but would provide more comfort.

gassho


Taigu

[anista]

Re: Zafu and zabuton?

Well...There is a very good reason to use the zafu or any cushion that does the job, it is precisely to raise the hips a bit, ease up the release of the knees and help to keep the natural curve of the spine. In fact, even if it is thin, and sometimes it can be ( one has to explore and find out what fits), you should always use a form of zafu.

Hi Taigu

Thank you for your answer. I agree with you that the zafu can be of great help, no doubt! But is it possible to do without it, if, and only if, the posture is still intact (that's why I think it is interesting to know how they do things in other traditions as well as the history of its usage. Does all other traditions use something similar?).

Or do you mean that the posture is impossible to keep intact without a zafu?

I should say that I don't have anything against a zafu at all, I will gladly use one from now on. Just a little curious, that's all!

[anista]

Re: Zafu and zabuton?

EDIT* LOL missed the bit about WHY historically...lol my bad. Skip this if youd like...just an opinion followed by speculation - er guess work XD!

No problem Shohei, I like opinions followed by speculations!

[Jundo]

Re: Zafu and zabuton?

Well...There is a very good reason to use the zafu or any cushion that does the job, it is precisely to raise the hips a bit, ease up the release of the knees and help to keep the natural curve of the spine. In fact, even if it is thin, and sometimes it can be ( one has to explore and find out what fits), you should always use a form of zafu.

Hi Taigu

Thank you for your answer. I agree with you that the zafu can be of great help, no doubt! But is it possible to do without it, if, and only if, the posture is still intact (that's why I think it is interesting to know how they do things in other traditions as well as the history of its usage. Does all other traditions use something similar?).

Or do you mean that the posture is impossible to keep intact without a zafu?

I should say that I don't have anything against a zafu at all, I will gladly use one from now on. Just a little curious, that's all!

I believe that, in many South Asian traditions, meditators sit either directly on the floor, or on fairly small and thin sitting cushions. When I sat at a monastery in Vietnam last year and in Thailand a few years ago, they used fairly thin square sitting pillows, although rather firm to sit on.

I would suggest that the higher Zafu does offer advantages for the hips, knees and back, however (as Taigu said), so you should try sitting that way before you reject it.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Re: Zafu and zabuton?

Here is a photo of a kind of mat sometimes seen in Thailand ...



Here is another image from Thailand, I believe, and you can see the cushions ...



These monks seems to be sitting flat on the ground, on a thin mat ...

[chicanobudista]

Re: Zafu and zabuton?

Thank you for your answer. I agree with you that the zafu can be of great help, no doubt! But is it possible to do without it, if, and only if, the posture is still intact (that's why I think it is interesting to know how they do things in other traditions as well as the history of its usage. Does all other traditions use something similar?

Here is something from Wiki reg. chairs:

During Tang dynasty (618 - 907 AD), a higher seat first started to appear amongst the Chinese elite and their usage soon spread to all levels of society. By the 12th century seating on the floor was rare in China, unlike in other Asian countries where the custom continued, and the chair, or more commonly the stool, was used in the vast majority of houses throughout the country.

So, the use of zafu and zabuton at least in Zen circles have had historical aside from practical reasons. It's used because that what everybody used. The same reason I have curiously noted why do folks who were not raised in Japan or in Japanese culture start wearing Japenese clothes (aside from the Rakusu) for practicing meditation?

At the least in the US, I have seen a trend to teach that, yes, you don't have to sit in a lotus position under a zafu and zabuton in order to meditate. Here is one example: Zen Mountain Monastery.

[anista]

Re: Zafu and zabuton?

Thanks for the pics, Jundo!

It's interesting though, all the meditators on those pics are sitting with their knees all up in the air, even if some of them have cushions to lift them up a bit. I thought it was commonplace for buddhist meditation (in all of its forms and varieties) to sit with your knees touching the ground, for stability.

Shows how much I know!

[anista]

Re: Zafu and zabuton?

Here is something from Wiki reg. chairs:

During Tang dynasty (618 - 907 AD), a higher seat first started to appear amongst the Chinese elite and their usage soon spread to all levels of society. By the 12th century seating on the floor was rare in China, unlike in other Asian countries where the custom continued, and the chair, or more commonly the stool, was used in the vast majority of houses throughout the country.

Thanks for the article! But does this mean that people started using a zafu because in China, they were used to sitting on stools and not directly on the floor? Could be, I suppose.

The same reason I have curiously noted why do folks who were not raised in Japan or in Japanese culture start wearing Japenese clothes (aside from the Rakusu) for practicing meditation?

Because you look cool? /Just kidding.

[chicanobudista]

Re: Zafu and zabuton?

Thanks for the article! But does this mean that people started using a zafu because in China, they were used to sitting on stools and not directly on the floor? Could be, I suppose.

Probably. We take our chairs for granted. A cultural and economic given. We sit in chairs because we all do and that's what I am used to. If Buddha had started his teaching on 2010 A.C.E., I bet we would have statues of him sitting on a sofa recliner. :mrgreen:

The same reason I have curiously noted why do folks who were not raised in Japan or in Japanese culture start wearing Japenese clothes (aside from the Rakusu) for practicing meditation?

Because you look cool? /Just kidding.

Oh hell yes! Ladies dig it! :twisted:

BTW...I did start sitting in a chair and later evolved to a seiza chair. Never returned to a chair.

[Jundo]

Re: Zafu and zabuton?

Thanks for the pics, Jundo!

It's interesting though, all the meditators on those pics are sitting with their knees all up in the air, even if some of them have cushions to lift them up a bit. I thought it was commonplace for buddhist meditation (in all of its forms and varieties) to sit with your knees touching the ground, for stability.

Shows how much I know!

No, it is important to have one's knees down on the ground, as about anyone here who has had trouble with that can attest. Also, just look at any image of the classic seating posture ...



Those monks at the seashore may be having trouble with that, and be sometimes stooped over, because of the lack of a good cushion underneath them.

I have no doubt that the Zafu was an excellent invention somewhere that greatly aided sitting (by getting the knees down, supporting the natural curve of the spine, as Taigu said).

I also still believe that a variation on the Lotus Posture, if done correctly, has some advantages to balanced sitting over chair sitting. I only recommend a chair to those who truly have a physical condition which prevents sitting on the floor. (I believe Seiza on a bench is somewhere in between).

However, the version of the Lotus which I recommend to most Western people (of large thigh, like me) is the Burmese ...




The first and simplest is the Burmese position, in which the legs are crossed and both feet rest flat on the floor. The knees should also rest on the floor, though sometimes it takes a bit of exercise to be able to get the legs to drop that far. The Burmese posture is formed by opening the hips and placing the legs parallel to one another, knees touching the ground. The legs are not crossed in any way. You may need more height on the zafu to get the knees to touch the ground.

The book I recently highly recommended to everyone, which seems very much in line with what Taigu is instructing on the sit-a-long ...

viewtopic.php?p=30208#p30208

, suggests a good cushion up the backside ... Search the word "cushion", and find page 26 here

http://www.amazon.com/reader/1570622329 ... 1570622329

Be sure to catch the pictures on page 25 and page 27 (although I am not so keen on the discussion of the "natural flow of the life force" that the author likes sometimes)

I am hoping that Taigu will have more to say on this.

Gassho, Jundo

[Shohei]

Re: Zafu and zabuton?

Thanks for the information here!
I have been Sticking hard to getting back in to full lotus form earlier with a bit more pain.
Tonight for the long sit i was, prior to sitting, feeling cruddy to say the least and the snow falling outside usually causes some nice stiff/achy and raw knees - tonight was no exception and I decided before sitting to give it all a try as suggested here and by others prior. I started in half lotus for the first sit, sieza on my cushion turned on its side the second bit , Burmese (yeah the thigh thing applies here too still) and back to half for the last with a bit of cushion under the sorest knee. Long and short of it was it made what was bound to be a wiggly, fidgety mental battle against my knees into Zazen with far less intervention!

So Thank you to all for your posts and for getting me to let that leg (and my grip) slip a little.

Gassho
Shohei