The Watcher

[will]

Re: The Watcher

(confusion and delusion are part of enlightenment too. Things usually straighten themselves out.

Yeah. Just thought I'd bust some n*ts. As usual :roll:



Gassho _/_

[will]

Re: The Watcher

Actually, this post popped up out of an insight that I had. Nothing really to do with the previous poster. Just something on ego manifestation and taking a different turn than that of Soto Zen.

W

[Bids]

Re: The Watcher

Hello All,
Thought this an interesting article .... might be helpful to some in understanding the actual dynamics of 'no self'
Free Will: The Last Gasp of the Unenlightend Mind by Jay Michaelson to be found at
http://www.realitysandwich.com/free_will
(.. don't know how to make this into a direct link)

Greetings and gassho
Nadi (who does not post often here but is very much with you all and grateful for your teachings)

[Jundo]

Re: The Watcher

Hello All,
Thought this an interesting article .... might be helpful to some in understanding the actual dynamics of 'no self'
Free Will: The Last Gasp of the Unenlightend Mind by Jay Michaelson to be found at
http://www.realitysandwich.com/free_will
(.. don't know how to make this into a direct link)

Greetings and gassho
Nadi (who does not post often here but is very much with you all and grateful for your teachings)

Hi Bids,

We had a thread on "free will" awhile back. To cut to the chase, Buddhism allows for "free will" as well as "determinism" (in other words, it depends on how ya look at it). Certainly, we are bound by cause and effect head to foot ... yet we have volition.

Here is the thread ...

viewtopic.php?p=22867#p22867

I am not saying that the debate is any more settled in the Buddhist philosophical world than in Western philosophy, but in general, Buddhism walks the razors edge on the issue.

Likewise, in Buddhism, the "self" is a fiction, a dream ... yet as real as real can be (who am I writing to if not you?). The "self" is a conventional truth, and a falsehood ... but true nonetheless.

Gassho, Jundo

[Bids]

Re: The Watcher

Dear Jundo,
Thank you for your reply. Hope my reference was not too much off topic for this thread .
I found the article personally helpful in seeing how the 'enlightenment by myriad of things' (mentiond in Will's earlier mail), and how the 'dream' that dreams the 'self'' actually evolves (- or at least one take on how it evolves). Of course words on paper or the ideas they stimulate are no substitute for 'full reality contact' however I do sometimes find they help in pointing the way.

Thank you for the link.

Gassho
Nadi

[Jundo]

Re: The Watcher

Thanks Nadi. It is good for folks to use any means to realize the "self as fiction, dream" part of the equation ... because most of us have no problem with the "self feels real" part.

In the end, so long as we are alive, it is good and necessary to see "both views at once, not two" (Dogen called this a "dream within a dream" ... not real and as real as real can be ... a fiction, and a jewel ... it may be a dream, but it is our dream, life). . But to get to that point, one must realize the dream as a dream.

Gassho, Jundo (a fiction, but just Jundo)

[Hoko]

Re: The Watcher

Sorry to "rebirth" this old thread but I've been trying to catch up on all the interesting dialogs that go on around here and I stumbled onto this conversation late in the game.

A lot of people have trouble getting their brains over the "mental speed bump" of being the subject and the object at the same time.
How the heck is this possible, right?

So this reminded me of the ONE thing I got out of reading that massive, impenetrable tome "Zen and the Brain" by James Austin.
(I swear to God that book is chloroform in print...)

There's one little section when Dr. Austin suggests an experiment you can play with at home.
(But not too much or you'll go blind.)

Ready? Close your eyes.
Take your right forefinger and rub it along the length of your left forefinger. Imagine in your mind the shape of what you are feeling.
It's a finger shaped object! (DUH!)
You can detect the bumps and wrinkles of your knuckles, hairs, etc.
Now, reverse the experiment; take your left forefinger and trace the length of your right forefinger.

So what just happened here?
At some point your right forefinger stopped being the "feeler" (aka subject) and started being the "felt object".
Your left forefinger also reversed its role.
It did so seamlessly. Do it again and try to notice the exact moment that your finger changes roles.
Ooooo. Creepy!
I know it's a lame party trick but it's a nifty way to illustrate a point.

So what you're feeling is a subtle shift in perspective.
Even though your left and right hands are connected to the same body/mind you still fabricate the illusion in your head that there is a subject and an object.
(Don't forget: you're feeling yourself! No subject, no object, just YOU.)

The only reason your brain can't accommodate being the subject and the object at the same time is because of a learned habit.
Food for thought anyway...

Gassho,
-K2

[disastermouse]

Re: The Watcher

Jundo you were almost right in your guess - the quote wasn't from Tolle but from someone I was
corresponding with who would be in the Non-Duality/Advaita bracket. Although is Zen not also Non-Duality
teaching?
Jenny

Sounds a lot like Adyashanti, actually.

Chet

[AlanLa]

Re: The Watcher

On second thought, I think it is better to be the watcher than the person so lost in delusion they aren't aware enough to even see they are so lost in delusion. So maybe a continuum: lost....... watcher....... sitter.

To use the old our mind-thoughts are like sediment in a glass analogy: To be lost is to have the glass being shaken so much all the dirt is floating all over; to be watching is to notice the glass is shaking and then letting it stop; to be the just sitter is to let the sediment of our minds begin to settle to the bottom.

To just sit is still the non-goal, but I need to just watch before I can let it go enough to just sit. So maybe watching is a developmental way-station along the way to just sitting. There might not be anything wrong with watching, but we gotta let it go, too.

[Jundo]

Re: The Watcher

To use the old our mind-thoughts are like sediment in a glass analogy: To be lost is to have the glass being shaken so much all the dirt is floating all over; to be watching is to notice the glass is shaking and then letting it stop; to be the just sitter is to let the sediment of our minds begin to settle to the bottom.

To just sit is still the non-goal, but I need to just watch before I can let it go enough to just sit. So maybe watching is a developmental way-station along the way to just sitting. There might not be anything wrong with watching, but we gotta let it go, too.

Some quotes come to mind ...

"The lotus shrine has never been tainted by the mud in the water" (Eihei Koroku 5-404)

"Practicing Buddhas are free from obstruction as they penetrate the vital path of being splattered by mud and soaked in water" (Shobogenzo Gyobutsu Igi)

[will]

Re: The Watcher

Posted before seeing Jundo's post _/_:

Alan
To just sit is still the non-goal, but I need to just watch before I can let it go enough to just sit. So maybe watching is a developmental way-station along the way to just sitting. There might not be anything wrong with watching, but we gotta let it go, too.

If asked "What is a bird?", we point and say "that's a bird". If asked "What is that sound?", we say "that's traffic". Skim through Shunryu Suzuki's writings. Also there is a video on youtube of Shunryu talking. Maybe listen to that.

Edit: Also, The part of the quote to Study the self is relevant. Where can we start but right here, on the cushion, with our habits, thinking, reactions and so on.

Shobogenzo: Zanmai-O-Zanmai

We should investigate: at the very moment we are sitting, are all realms vertical? Are they horizontal? At the very moment we are sitting, what about that sitting? Is it a flip? Is it “brisk and lively”? Is it thinking? Is it not thinking? Is it making? Is it without making? Are we sitting within sitting? Are we sitting within body and mind? Are we sitting having sloughed off “within sitting,” “within body and mind,” and so on? We should investigate one thousand points, ten thousand points, such as these.

Gassho

[AlanLa]

Re: The Watcher

I don't disagree at all. I'm just saying sometimes (I may have left that important word out) you need to watch before you can not watch. A developmental approach can be helpful to people, steps on the path, that sort of thing. I have seen watching the thoughts given as a beginner step in meditation, and then once you can watch you can learn to drop watching.

Also, if I just stop shaking the water in that glass, I don't need to watch the dirt in it settle; the dirt will just settle on its own.