The Watcher

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  • will
    Member
    • Jun 2007
    • 2331

    The Watcher

    Someone brought up this watcher thing a while ago, and I'd like to straighten some stuff out about this "Watcher".

    Read these sentences very carefully (I know you've read them a thousand times. Read them again.)

    To study the way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self and be enlightened by myriad things.

    To be enlightened by myriad things means there is no "you". There is no "watcher". There is only "this". Activity presenting itself as this. The crickets make sounds. We don't say "That is a cricket making a sound and I hear it." No. The cricket just makes the sound and that's it. No watching going on. Just the sound. Then we get on with it.

    The touch of a hand on hand. We don't say "this is what my hand touching my other hand feels like". No. There is only the feeling or "sensory stuff". We don't focus on it making it a big deal. So this can be said like: "What presents itself, presents itself as itself without commentary or a need to justify that this is whatever it is." Just moment to moment. You are the sounds or touch.

    Myriad things present themselves (Not just one or two). There is so much stuff going on that if we try to notice (or focus) on everything, it would drive us bonkers. However, we can let the myriad things come forth. There is no separation.

    This is what's meant by: goalless sitting, not trying, or Zazen is action/activity.


    Gassho

    W
    [size=85:z6oilzbt]
    To save all sentient beings, though beings are numberless.
    To penetrate reality, though reality is boundless.
    To transform all delusion, though delusions are immeasurable.
    To attain the enlightened way, a way non-attainable.
    [/size:z6oilzbt]
  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40347

    #2
    Re: The Watcher

    Hi Will,

    Perhaps what you describe is also not-not the Watcher?

    (By the way, Master Dogen used to like to refer to such 'whatchamacallits' with question words ... like 'What' ... Please look from near the bottom on page 90 here ...

    http://books.google.com/books?id=pHFJpe ... t&resnum=1
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

    Comment

    • Taigu
      Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
      • Aug 2008
      • 2710

      #3
      Re: The Watcher

      Thank you, Will. This is a very important point. Let's all watch out!

      gassho


      Taigu

      Comment

      • Tb
        Member
        • Jan 2008
        • 3186

        #4
        Re: The Watcher

        Hi.

        _/_

        "Do not separate between hot and cold"

        I wonder who wrote that?

        Mtfbwy
        Fugen
        Life is our temple and its all good practice
        Blog: http://fugenblog.blogspot.com/

        Comment

        • Jenny
          Member
          • Jan 2008
          • 62

          #5
          Re: The Watcher

          I take it The Watcher is the same as Witness Consciousness? I have just read
          "Witness consciousness usually arises when there is familiarity with more subtle levels of relative
          consciousness through the practice of zazen. Witness consciousness can refine and become more frequent,
          but Present Awareness is fully present through all changing states and is the true Impersonal Self that
          One already is. That which can be gained can also be lost, but that which never changes is the real
          Self."

          Jenny

          Comment

          • Jundo
            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
            • Apr 2006
            • 40347

            #6
            Re: The Watcher

            Originally posted by Jenny
            I take it The Watcher is the same as Witness Consciousness? I have just read
            "Witness consciousness usually arises when there is familiarity with more subtle levels of relative
            consciousness through the practice of zazen. Witness consciousness can refine and become more frequent,
            but Present Awareness is fully present through all changing states and is the true Impersonal Self that
            One already is. That which can be gained can also be lost, but that which never changes is the real
            Self."

            Jenny
            Hi Jen,

            Might you provide a source for the quote, the teacher. Is it Mr. Tolle's Power of Now?

            I am generally very cautious about such teachings. My nutshell reason is this:

            The focus of practice can quickly become merging and being "one with" some "Cosmic Spirit" ... versus living, merging, being at one with this very "just right here" life. I am not saying whether there is or is not (or is/not/is not/whatever 8) ) a "Cosmic Spirit" or "Great Consciousness" or the like ... just that our practice of Zen is somewhat unconcerned with that (though some teachers might be pulled in that direction ... not too many of which I am aware).

            As I often say ...

            If there is a Cosmic Spirit/The Watcher/Witness Consciousness ... chop wood and fetch water.

            And is there is no Cosmic Spirit/The Watcher/Witness Consciousness ... chop wood and fetch water.


            I wrote more about this whole topic here.

            viewtopic.php?p=9740#p9740

            Gassho, Jundo
            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

            Comment

            • Shindo
              Member
              • Mar 2008
              • 278

              #7
              Re: The Watcher

              All things just as they are - nothing added or taken away
              but on the other hand
              Seeing the joy/sadness/boredom/excitement etc in all things

              Juts nooddling

              Jools
              [color=#404040:301177ix]"[i:301177ix]I come to realize that mind is no other than mountains and rivers and the great wide earth, the sun and the moon and star[/i:301177ix]s". - [b:301177ix]Dogen[/b:301177ix][/color:301177ix]

              Comment

              • will
                Member
                • Jun 2007
                • 2331

                #8
                Re: The Watcher

                All things just as they are - nothing added or taken away
                but on the other hand
                Seeing the joy/sadness/boredom/excitement etc in all things
                Looking deep.
                Letting go.
                Opening up.

                But I can't say it. Sitting sits.


                _/_
                [size=85:z6oilzbt]
                To save all sentient beings, though beings are numberless.
                To penetrate reality, though reality is boundless.
                To transform all delusion, though delusions are immeasurable.
                To attain the enlightened way, a way non-attainable.
                [/size:z6oilzbt]

                Comment

                • Jenny
                  Member
                  • Jan 2008
                  • 62

                  #9
                  Re: The Watcher

                  Jundo you were almost right in your guess - the quote wasn't from Tolle but from someone I was
                  corresponding with who would be in the Non-Duality/Advaita bracket. Although is Zen not also Non-Duality
                  teaching?
                  Jenny

                  Comment

                  • Bansho
                    Member
                    • Apr 2007
                    • 532

                    #10
                    Re: The Watcher

                    Hi,

                    Originally posted by Jenny
                    Although is Zen not also Non-Duality teaching?
                    Yes and no.

                    Gassho
                    Bansho
                    ??

                    Comment

                    • Jundo
                      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 40347

                      #11
                      Re: The Watcher

                      Originally posted by Bansho
                      Hi,

                      Originally posted by Jenny
                      Although is Zen not also Non-Duality teaching?
                      Yes and no.

                      Gassho
                      Bansho
                      Well, that's half right, Bansho. I would say no and yes.
                      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                      Comment

                      • Bansho
                        Member
                        • Apr 2007
                        • 532

                        #12
                        Re: The Watcher

                        Originally posted by Jundo
                        Originally posted by Bansho
                        Hi,

                        Originally posted by Jenny
                        Although is Zen not also Non-Duality teaching?
                        Yes and no.

                        Gassho
                        Bansho
                        Well, that's half right, Bansho. I would say no and yes.
                        :lol:
                        ??

                        Comment

                        • Eika
                          Member
                          • Sep 2007
                          • 806

                          #13
                          Re: The Watcher

                          Originally posted by will
                          Someone brought up this watcher thing a while ago, and I'd like to straighten some stuff out about this "Watcher".
                          OK . . . (confusion and delusion are part of enlightenment too. Things usually straighten themselves out. Maybe not on our time-table, but on their own . . . no problem).

                          Originally posted by will
                          To be enlightened by myriad things means there is no "you". There is no "watcher". There is only "this". Activity presenting itself as this. The crickets make sounds. We don't say "That is a cricket making a sound and I hear it." No. The cricket just makes the sound and that's it. No watching going on. Just the sound. Then we get on with it.

                          The touch of a hand on hand. We don't say "this is what my hand touching my other hand feels like". No. There is only the feeling or "sensory stuff". We don't focus on it making it a big deal. So this can be said like: "What presents itself, presents itself as itself without commentary or a need to justify that this is whatever it is." Just moment to moment. You are the sounds or touch.

                          Myriad things present themselves (Not just one or two). There is so much stuff going on that if we try to notice (or focus) on everything, it would drive us bonkers. However, we can let the myriad things come forth. There is no separation.

                          This is what's meant by: goalless sitting, not trying, or Zazen is action/activity.
                          Very nicely said.

                          Gassho,
                          Bill
                          [size=150:m8cet5u6]??[/size:m8cet5u6] We are involved in a life that passes understanding and our highest business is our daily life---John Cage

                          Comment

                          • AlanLa
                            Member
                            • Mar 2008
                            • 1405

                            #14
                            Re: The Watcher

                            Romper Room version:
                            DO BE the sitter.
                            DON'T BE the watcher.
                            :P
                            AL (Jigen) in:
                            Faith/Trust
                            Courage/Love
                            Awareness/Action!

                            I sat today

                            Comment

                            • Jenny
                              Member
                              • Jan 2008
                              • 62

                              #15
                              Re: The Watcher

                              Yes, Jundo, I see what you mean. What is my actual daily experience without all the "head-stuff"? It is chopping wood and carrying water. Sometimes I realise I resent the chopping and carrying, wishing it could
                              be different or that I could be elsewhere. Other times it is o.k. and just the next thing to be done. My
                              sitting practice helps me to notice both. To quote Susuki Roshi "Reality can said to be the bed that is
                              deep and soft enough to accept everything as it is".

                              I re-read your original post on the subject. Thank you for reminding me. I see poor old Eckhart has been
                              resurrected again from our old post of April 08!

                              Jenny

                              Comment

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