Death

[Kevin]

Re: Death

If you are going to use death as a form of practice - you need to imagine that you have been given your prognosis & then try to make it as real as you can. When I was given mine I cried every day for six months - it was not a happy place to be.

Thank you, Jools, for this important point, and for sharing your experience. As someone who applying to medical school and considering oncology for a specialty, and who has lost several close relatives to cancer (my aunt quite suddenly, with only three months from diagnosis to death from a rare, very aggressive form of cancer), I consider this subject and its impact to be of the utmost importance. However, that said, I have neither experienced nor witnessed firsthand the shock and pain you describe, either from a diagnosis or, frankly, from any other source. It's an important point, to me, to drive home the fact that all the thought experiments in the world can't really prepare one for the experience itself.

That said, even while we experience (or don't experience, even in the moment) what our lives bring us, yet simultaneously it all is a thought experiment. Speaking not from the wisdom gained from an experience as hard-hitting as the one you described, but from other experiences, even while we are in the throes of pain, fear, sadness, or (in my case) anger, yet it is all also a thought experiment. Scant comfort, perhaps, in the midst of the emotion, but even the most intense emotions pass and reveal themselves for what they are: a part of a moment perfect as it is that then vanishes, replaced by another moment perfect as it is.

Again, hard to hold to in the moment, but no less true in the midst of intense emotion than in our moment of greatest calm and clarity.

Gassho,
Kevin

PS. I celebrate with you your still being here three years after your bowel cancer diagnosis. Deep gassho to you and your family, and thank you for your teaching.

[will]

Re: Death

Although death is an inevitable part of life, it is only another moment. Being healthy helps us to take things for granted. Like we are going to live forever.

Being with death and knowing death is the point. Contemplating death can just lead to failure to practice "this" moment.

Instead of writing an essay on death, actually be with someone who is dead or dying.

Gassho

[Rich]

Re: Death

Although death is an inevitable part of life, it is only another moment. Being healthy helps us to take things for granted. Like we are going to live forever.

Being with death and knowing death is the point. Contemplating death can just lead to failure to practice "this" moment.

Instead of writing an essay on death, actually be with someone who is dead or dying.

Gassho

Yes, I agree, be with someone who is dying and you will experience death. INTELLECTUAL explanations of life and death are well, mostly inadequate and sometimes funny.

Jools, thank you for sharing your story. It brought me back to reality.

[Taigu]

Re: Death

Chet,

Let's see if you can hang on to that view if you're wasting away in a hospital bed with bone cancer.

Well, as I see it, the problem in this statement is the use of "if". Twice. What if you did or did not, what if you would, what if you will, what if... that is my mother's favorite mantra and, trust me, it leads to a tremendous amount of suffering. If is a big illusion. The reality is we are where we are, from sandy beaches to hospital beds without any "if", and we practice as we can. When the moment comes, we do the best we can and it can be crying for six months of feeling on top of this. Whatever. A person diagnosed with cancer that wishes it d never happened is in absolute hell. And I assume that when it hits, it is what we all tend to do. Accepting the situation and learning how to get on with this day by day is practice.

I bumped once into this very inspiring vid of Byron Katie,I love her work and method of inquiry. I know of a few american Soto monks using it. And I use it as well rather. Just have a look:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1x03oSZpSI[/video]]

Hi Will, always very sharp! Your words are so cristal clear and have a razor edge quality. Fancy a walk with Kannon in the woods? Very refreshing, you know. Anyway,You write

Instead of writing an essay on death, actually be with someone who is dead or dying.

Cannot agree more Will. Let's stay with this. Let's not escape this bag of flesh and bones.

And thank you so much Jools for sharing your experience with us.

Gassho

Taigu

[Jundo]

Re: Death

It is also not coming, because we were never born.

A recent thread on that topic ...

viewtopic.php?p=20191#p20191

Let's see if you can hang on to that view if you're wasting away in a hospital bed with bone cancer.

Chet

I certainly hope I will. Then especially, of all times.

Of course, between the crying like Jools said, and the morphine shots.

They say that it is typical for cancer patients to go through stages after diagnosis (I believe they are denial, anger, negotiation, then depression, next resignation). It is human to do so, and I would not expect to avoid that. We do not run away from, nor repress, normal human emotional reactions to events in this flavor of Buddhism which we practice.

On the other hand though, after many years of Buddhist practice, I fully hope and expect that Wisdom & Compassion would inform, speed and change each of those. Some people say that one aspect of Zazen is as a "life long practice for a graceful death". I have never had cancer myself, so I do not know that bridge until it comes ... but I base this on the many writings of (and personal friends who are) long time Zen teachers and students who are also cancer patients. Suzuki Roshi was one. My friend Nonin (from Nebraska Zen Center and often on AZI) and Daido Loori are currently battling lung cancer day by day, each with strength and grace. Here is another one ... very honest and inspirational ...

http://www.fearlessbooks.com/fsZenPhil.html

Gassho, Jundo

Ps - Let me mention that my wife and I have been hospice volunteers. I cannot recommend that more highly to people as their Samu volunteer work practice ... as vital as Zazen, and Zazen in motion, in your Buddhist practice. There are a couple of good Zen Sangha supported projects ongoing too, although not open merely to Zen practitioners.

http://www.zenhospice.org/

There is probably a hospice in your area looking for volunteers.

Gassho, Jundo

[disastermouse]

Re: Death

Dunno if I need to do hospice on top of the Neuro-tele work I do at the moment. I see people frequently in a 'bad way' - cancers that affect neuro, head injuries or aneurysms that radically affect the lives of people and their families.

All I was saying is that it's easy to say that we were never really born, but there's a large part of most of us, deep down, that really does not believe this.

Chet

[humblepie]

Re: Death

I don't have anything enlightening or profound to add to this conversation, but I noticed hospice was mentioned.
My father is now being cared for by hospice and his days in this life as we know it are coming to an end.

And I'm okay with it. I'm okay with a lot of things, actually. Thanks for posting this topic, Kevin. Not morbid at all, though if you want to do a project on death, just film yourself. We are all living and dying simultaneously.

Or not at all :wink:

Gassho,
Dave

[Shindo]

Re: Death

Thank you for all your kind comments and forgive me for trundling out my cancer story again - I just didn't want the thread to become too glib and wanted it to be grounded. As for experiencing this form of event - I invite you to have a cup of coffee at your nearest oncology centre. Just sit and watch the endless parade of people bravely accepting their prognosis with dignity and courage. My abiding memory of that time in my life was that the vast majority of people are so kind & generous, and that practice enables you to see that compassion all round you. I will just finish with a quote from a fellow buddhist which helped me (forgive me - I have posted this before) at that time

"Be loving, kind & compassionate; focus your mind clearly in the present, hone it and hammer it until it is as dense as an anvil to develop mental equanimity; take great great joy in your accomplishments and especially in those of others. Be present, be present, be present and be present"

Kindest regards

Jools

[Tobiishi]

Re: Death

Just wanted to give another boost to the idea of volunteering for hospice care- which I should myself attend to, since I have not done it since: My father-in-law, who I only knew for three years before he died, had renal cancer that had spread to a tumor in his cervical vertebrae. After seven years of treatment, he said he was ready to die, and came home to be cared for by hospice. However, that only covered 8 hours of (in-home) care daily, so my wife and I covered the other 16. It took about three months of bedridden care before he died, and I still don't know how to describe it. I would do it again, and I should.

I'm glad you're still here, Jools!

gassho

[Shonin]

Re: Death

Death has always been an odd topic that makes me a lil uncomfortable so thanks for this thread.

I'm one who has always seemed to react to death differently than others around. When I hear of someone dying and someone's sorrows I often can't relate too much.

Been reflecting a bit on death lately as it seems the trend for co-workers' grandparents to die in the past two weeks.

Oddly, I often think to myself that since we merely change forms why do so many people have issues with death and the loss. It happens and get over it.

Then I am usually quick to chastise myself for being almost cold about it.

But at the same time I find it heart wrenching when an animal passes away.*shrugs*

Dave

[Kelly]

Re: Death

I was thinking today about death and how it's perceived in society as something horrible, to be avoided at all costs. I was considering starting a personal photojournalism project regarding death, and was considering how others might perceive that as morbid or even offensive.

Hi Kevin

I share your unconventional opinion of death and dying and I believe you should explore this as you see fit. If you're the creative type, a photojournalism project would be ideal, there are many books and media out there on the related subject to get you started and perhaps give you some direction. I believe I understand your interest and have spent quite sometime educating myself on the various practices and am currently attending mortuary college.

If I could, I'd like to caution you though; I have seen fellow classmates (and a few in the business) get too caught up in grief or death or thier own mortality when emersed in the death trade/customs. My advise (and what has worked for me) is to keep your interviews, readings, writings, or however you intend to research for your project seperate from your personal life. Treat it like a job and "switch off." (sorry if I've told you something you already know)

As for your views being morbid or offensive, it can be offensive to some people. But you can't live or sensor your life to fit others. If they're offended, they don't have to see your project (though I'd bet 9 out of 10 would).

Good luck with your project and if possible, I'd be interested in viewing it.

Kelly

[Eika]

Re: Death

Death: the big scary nothing.

It scares the shit out of me . . . however, I will not know it.

Firewood does not turn into ashes.


Gassho,
Eika

[Tobiishi]

Re: Death

Firewood does not turn into ashes.


Gassho,
Eika

Thanks for the reminder! I've seen this before, but can't remember the source- any idea?

gassho

[Bansho]

Re: Death

Hi Tobiah,

Firewood does not turn into ashes.


Gassho,
Eika

Thanks for the reminder! I've seen this before, but can't remember the source- any idea?

gassho

I think Eika may be referring to this passage from the Shobogenzo, Genjo Koan.

Firewood becomes ash; it can never go back to being firewood. Nevertheless, we should not take the view that ash is its future and firewood is its past. Remember, firewood abides in the place of firewood in the Dharma. It has a past and it has a future. Although it has a past and a future, the past and the future are cut off. Ash exists in the place of ash in the Dharma. It has a past and it has a future. The firewood, after becoming ash, does not again become firewood. Similarly, human beings, after death, do not live again. At the same time, it is an established custom in the Buddha-Dharma not to say that life turns into death. This is why we speak of “no appearance.” And it is the Buddha’s preaching established in [the turning of] the Dharma wheel that death does not turn into life. This is why we speak of “no disappearance.” Life is an instantaneous situation, and death is also an instantaneous situation. It is the same, for example, with winter and spring. We do not think that winter becomes spring, and we do not say that spring becomes summer.
(tran. Nishijima & Cross)

Gassho
Bansho