Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

[AlanLa]

Intro: I got in a big disagreement with a colleague yesterday about certain applications of online/distance education. He is steadfastly against it to the point of red-faced, foot-stomping, yelling about its shortcomings and evils. But he also knows almost nothing about it, nor does he have any intention of ever finding anything out about it. To him, it is either face-to-face education or nothing. Anything short of face-to-face is NOT human contact. It's not that I think he's wrong in what he says (I grant him his points), it's that he is so closed minded about any alternative to his traditional ways. To me, this is just blind-faced dogma, and it bugs the crap out of me. As a Buddhist in this online sangha, I "know" that he is wrong: lots of human contact occurs here online, for example. I wanted very much to help him see this, but he is not ready to be helped, and I was not skillful enough to be of much help.

My Point: I went home and spent the better part of the evening really examining what happened and my role in it. To make a long story shorter, I realized I have a dogma against dogma, my anti-dogma dogma. This makes me the same as him: dogmatic. Thus the argument. Right/wrong, good/bad, East/West, Soto/Rinzai, etc. are relatively easy to recognize when they become dogma, but I think we can add to this list closed mind/open mind, because to cling to any of these ideas to the point of absolute denial of the other leads us to dogma. I think this open-minded dogma happens a lot, to some degree or other, in what is often a sneaky sort of way. So I guess I'm sharing as a warning to look out for what might be your anti-dogma dogma lurking nearby. Or maybe it's just me.

I hope this made sense.
Any thoughts?

[Jundo]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

One size need not fit all.

[will]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

Any thoughts?

Have a peach and don't worry about it.

W

[AlanLa]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

Maybe I explained it OK, but after sleeping on it I think I can explain it clearer. His dogma is we must only have face-to-face education. I take this as close-minded and reply with my anti-dogma dogma, which is that he must be open-minded about alternatives. We aren't even talking about the same thing at that point. My "open mind" is not open enough, too dogmatic, to accept his view.

Any time I get faced with what I view to be closed-mindedness, "You MUST be/think/do, etc. __________," I respond (at least internally, and sometimes externally) with "No, you MUST be open minded about this." I think I'm helping the person, saving the person, as is my vow, so it's hard to just "eat a peach." But maybe that's the way to go.

I think I am not alone on this. Right?

[StephanCOH]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

I do not think you are alone in this. IMHO this deals with one very important thing, which is attachement. In this case it is attachement to being non-dogmatic. This may sound paradox as being non-dogmatic should prohibit any unhealthy attachement.

Dealing with that is really hard. If one is passionate about something one easily tends to become attached to something, which results in a switch of the perspective and what results from that.

[AlanLa]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

Yes, exactly. Thank you.

Also, to "eat a peach" doesn't feel right to me when closed-mindedness is the source of so much intolerance in the world. BUT insisting on open-mindedness is intolerant of closed-mindedness :? . And these designations of "mind" are subjective anyway, as we all know.

[StephanCOH]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

IMHO the only way to deal with that (on a practical level) is to question your own point of view yourself in each and every discussion. It's like a "workaround" to the dogma. If after that you are still feeling that your statement is right, then let it be.

And on the other hand, what is true to you does not necessarily have to be true for the person you are talking to. Keeping that in mind can be a useful tool to keep calm in some heated discussions, at least it has been for me (though it does not guarantee anything).

[will]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

Also, to "eat a peach" doesn't feel right to me when closed-mindedness is the source of so much intolerance in the world.

Having taught thousands of students throughout my career, many with views about everything under the Sun, I can honestly say "Eat a peach." is the way to go. But that's me.

I used to get all worked up about that, but it's no use. What are you going to do? Change his mind? Give him a brain scan? Argue him to death? It's not worth it, and generally ends up nowhere. So, yes, "Have a peach, and enjoy it." Forget about it.

"Or" you could have it drive you bonkers realizing that there is absolutely nothing you can do to change their mind. Just meet them as they are. Listen to them, smile at them, offer them a peach, and move on.

Gassho

Will

[Rich]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

online/distance education vs. face-to-face

Since joining this online community, I've thought about this and concluded they are just different. Online is mind to mind thinking without the extra sensory input. Sometimes online is better, sometimes face-to-face is better.

[Jundo]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

Personally, I believe that Zen can never be taught by online/distance/virtual learning, and anything short of fact-to-face is --not-- true human contact. I instruct you never to participate in any online Zendo practice, so it is either face-to-face or nothing.

Anyone who disagrees with me is a fool.

Gassho, Jundo

Ps - Of course, what is "distance" "human contact" "face-to-face" "virtual"?

Now, that is a Koan which only a True Zendo can let one resolve ... while a teacher across the same room from you, or even a millimeter from you, can not even touch it.

Anyone who thinks there is anyone to disagree is a fool.

[will]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

Remember, when we know, we don't know. Most of the time we're not really listening and just putting our own views on top of whatever someone is talking about.

Thanks for the post Rich and Jundo.

Will

[AlanLa]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

Having taught thousands of students throughout my career, many with views about everything under the Sun, I can honestly say "Eat a peach." is the way to go. But that's me.

I used to get all worked up about that, but it's no use. What are you going to do? Change his mind? Give him a brain scan? Argue him to death? It's not worth it, and generally ends up nowhere. So, yes, "Have a peach, and enjoy it." Forget about it.

"Or" you could have it drive you bonkers realizing that there is absolutely nothing you can do to change their mind. Just meet them as they are. Listen to them, smile at them, offer them a peach, and move on.

I don't disagree, Will. In that moment it clearly would have been the better choice. But it still doesn't feel quite right about, quite balanced. I don't think it's really the best choice. I think there was some middle way there, and I did not do it. I think I know now what it would be, but of course it is too late now, so I move on and leave that behind (or I am in the process of doing so), hopefully better able to handle that or a similar situation the next time, because with this person it will come up again.

More importantly, I don't want the context to distract from the bigger issue. I am trying to point at a moon that I think it is easy to fall prey to.

[Rich]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

"Personally, I believe that Zen can never be taught by online/distance/virtual learning, and anything short of fact-to-face is --not-- true human contact. I instruct you never to participate in any online Zendo practice, so it is either face-to-face or nothing."

My face will appear very soon.

[will]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

(I'm going off topic) what's important is that you have a Sangha, someone to contact with. This reaffirms your practice, and sometimes gives you the incentive to sit, and practice. Sometimes we have a bad moment or a bad day. It's good to get in contact and remember what your practicing.

Face to face is fine and living in that type of situation is more conducive to realization and Sila. However, if one practices consistently day after day. Moment after moment, and has contact with a community, then it's pretty much the same thing.

The only difference is, you have to get off your ass pretty much on your own.

Gassho

Will

[Rich]

Re: Discovering my anti-dogma dogma

Will, Well spoken.