Caffeine and Zazen

[Anthony]

Sorry for running long.

I had to wake up earlier than usual today to get some stuff done and I was still very sleepy when I hobbled out of bed. I went to go sit my morning zazen and had a really tough time staying awake. Around halfway through the session, I just decided to stop fighting it and get up from the cushion.

At this point, I went to go get my morning coffee, which I usually have after my morning zazen. After drinking my coffee, I felt alert enough to be able to do zazen without falling asleep, so I sat my whole session without nodding off.

It definitely seems like caffeine aids my attentiveness during zazen, and so I don't think it's a coincidence that we associate zen practice with green tea. But as far as I am aware, the tea-drinking usually takes place AFTER zazen and not before. I wonder if by having caffeine before zazen, I am over-relying on an outside substance to aid me in "just sitting" rather than just my own efforts. It feels a bit like performance-enhancing drugs for an athlete.

Zen is beyond good and bad, so I'm trying not to judge myself for this too harshly, but I'm curious what others think about using caffeine to wake up before zazen.

Gassho,
Anthony, satlah

[Bion]

I wouldn’t go to the cushion all tired and sleepy if I had a choice. I wake up every morning, have a coffee, then go sit. Before weekly zazenkai, which for me is 2 am, I have 1 coffee again. If I can create the causes and conditions for a balanced sit, I will do that. Sometimes, even with coffee I am still sleepy, so if I am sleepy, then it’s sleepy zazen. Back in China, and even in Japan, in monasteries, folks used to have a thing called a Zazen brace, which was basically a flat piece of wood with a dent on one end which supported the chin, while the other end rested in the palm. Monks were expected to sleep all night in zazen. Later, our own ancestor, Keizan Zenji, warned against that practice in his Zazen-Yōjinki, which we are currently studying at our monthly zazenkai. Point being, do not punish the body if you have a choice.

Also, please take what I say here as my own ideas, as a fellow practitioner, not as any teaching.
My apologies everyone for running a bit long.

gassho
sat and lah

[Shigeru]

I eat breakfast and drink coffee in the morning before Zazen, and try to not do evening Zazen too late. I try not to set myself up for tiredness and exhaustion, but sometimes I can't avoid it and have to sit with it anyway, life happens but I still have to practice. Monks have utilized tea for a long time to stay awake, so I don't think it would be any different to use coffee for the same purpose

Gassho
Will
Satlah

[Guest]

I tend to have my coffee after zazen, mostly, but occasionally I’ll have a cup of tea beside my next to the zabuton for after the bell rings.
I have the attention span of a goldfish, so nodding off, mind wandering, itching and wanting to get up and move around are part and parcel of zazen. When I first started to do sitting meditation 5 minutes felt like an eternity.
It still feels like that, I’m just more used to it.

My thought on the matter, as a fellow struggler on the zafu; is that whatever serves to keep zafu and bum connected is a good thing. We rely on externals to an extent anyway, the occasional coffee is far from the worst option.

Gassho
Myojin

[Jundo]

I do not feel it bad to drink a little tea or coffee before Zazen, and I recall seeing many monks in Japan drinking a quick tea on cold mornings before Zazen. I do not think it a problem at all.

By the way, you might be interested in this old post on sleep and Zazen ...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As in all things, I say "there is NO BAD ZAZEN!" ... even the bad Zazen!

Sleepy falling over Zazen is perfectly sleepy falling over Zazen! Nothing is lacking as sleepy falling over Zazen!

NONETHELESS ... we try not to be sleep or fall over as best we can! (A Koan. Zen folks always looks at these things two ways at once as one).

So, like folks have recommended, try to get sufficient sleep for Zazen (and for all of life), sit at a time of day when one is not so exhausted, drink some tea or other caffeinated beverage of choice (not Mountain Dew or those "Bulldog" things ... all things in moderation, even caffeine! ). However, Zen monks have had an intimate relationship with tea for 1500 years and more.

When sitting and a bit tired, try some deep breaths, or slightly elongating/stretching the neck and back. Some Zen monks put a rock on their head not to sleep, or a sharp needle in their thigh. I do not recommend that.

Some monks try to sit all night in Zazen, especially during intense retreats. Korean Rinzai monks, pushing for a breakthrough, often try to go a full 7 days with ZERO sleep ... with hallucinations that start about the third day. Also not recommended. (If they went a few more days, brain damage and death would kick in, but apparently 7 days is okay apart from the sometimes mental breakdowns which result). Some monks, trying to sit through the night, also tied ropes to themself and to a hook hanging from the ceiling so that they would not fall over, with a stick under the chin. Kinda cheating if you ask me! :-) The stick is called a Zenpan ...

About the Zenpan ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=smNM4ElP3XgC&pg=PA389&lpg=PA389&dq=%22chin+rest%22+zazen&source=bl&ots=ZLtt1aC0fq&sig=iQHgegc98emRx0klcgoLti7d5sc&hl=en&ei=juIyTojFLPHnmAX3gpTxCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22chin%20rest%22%20zazen&f=false

Dogen's teacher in China used to hit people dozing during a Zazen retreat with a slipper. I have heard that, in monasteries, sleep deprivation is used just like it is used in marine boot camp or prisoner interrogations ... to break down resistance. I don't recommend that to you either.

But Master Keizan wrote (in his Zazen Yojinki about the year 1400, which we are now studying in our monthly Zazenkai) ...

Although we shouldn’t be too anxious about bodily comforts, inadequate clothing, food and sleep are known as the "three insufficiencies" and will cause our practice to suffer. ...

The great teacher "Homeless Kodo" Sawaki Roshi said about sleep and Zazen ...

Eat in order to do zazen, sleep in order to do zazen. This means that eating and sleeping are also part of zazen.

I do not believe in sleep deprivation. Get a good night's sleep, not only for Zazen, but for health in general.

(Sorry to run long, and put everyone to sleep)

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kaitan]

It just occurred me that short and strong breaths help to boost energy, this stimulates the sympathetic system to stay alert. There are plenty of breath works on internet; it makes sense since long exhales promote relaxation (activate parasympathetic system). I haven't done those before zazen, only sporadically upon waking up since I don't drink coffee/tea in the morning. (I should try this for my night sittings )

Gasshō

stlah, Kaitan

[Anthony]

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses. I definitely feel better about having a coffee before zazen, and if that helps me sit more consistently, that's a plus!

Gasshō,
Anthony satlah

[Ankai]

I tend to drink a lot of tea, and I usually have at least one cup before zazen.
ST
LAH

[Seijin]

As many things in zen. I would just think it is a good thing to be aware of one’s habits, and ones desires, and ones needs.
And somehow make decision. That decision does not always need to be the same, and there’s not necessarily any right or wrong.

Seijin


sat ,lent a hand and hope I will accept one when I need one

[Jacob Janicek]

Caffeine and Zazen...go great together!

Jacob Jay sat today
Lent both hands

[Jundo]

Caffeine and Zazen...go great together!

Jacob Jay sat today
Lent both hands

But all things in moderation. If one finds themselves actually feeling like this Bodhidharma, then maybe cut back a bit ...

tsuku.jpg

Gassho, J

stlah

[Jundo]

Saw this today, science also supports moderation ...

While everyone’s tolerance is different, there is a limit to how much caffeine people can have in their systems. Jittery fingers and a racing heartbeat are common signs that you’re over-caffeinated. In rarer scenarios, an overconsumption of caffeine can lead to a state called caffeine intoxication or caffeine overdose.

Caffeine intoxication occurs when a person has dangerously high levels of caffeine in the system. It creates a spectrum of unpleasant and severe symptoms, such as trouble breathing and seizures. There are a few cases where people have died from caffeine intoxication.

While rare, there is always a potential for caffeine intoxication if a person is drinking irresponsibly. Recognizing the signs and factors that increase the risk of a caffeine overdose can help you avoid it in the first place.

... Caffeine intoxication is more than the headache you get from drinking too much expresso. It happens when people ingest an excessive amount of caffeine. The US Food and Drug Administration defines this limit as anything more than 400 milligrams of caffeine daily for healthy adults. This is equivalent to four or five cups of coffee.

Consuming slightly more than 400 milligrams of caffeine is not enough to kill or permanently impair someone, said Erin Palinski-Wade, a registered dietitian at EKP Nutrition Communications in New Jersey. The average adult will likely feel anxious and irritable. The more toxic effects of caffeine intoxication appear when people have 1,200 milligrams, about 12 cups of coffee, in their system.

https://us.cnn.com/2024/03/11/health...ess/index.html

Gassho, J

stlah

[Seiko]

Some of us wait until later because a drink before zazen might mean zazen is cut short for a toilet break.

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

[Jundo]

Some of us wait until later because a drink before zazen might mean zazen is cut short for a toilet break.

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

What?! Treeleaf monks are expected to sit with adult diapers, and or a catheter!

In all seriousness, I rarely if ever recall seeing Japanese priests exit Zazen midway, for reasons of illness or bathroom. They are a tough people with tough bladders.

If they do exit, it should be very quietly and discreetly.

Gassho, J

stlah