A Comment on the Situation in Israel-Palestine: We must consider new ways ...

[Rich]

There was a lot of violence and war when and where the Buddha lived and traveled 2500 hundred years ago among a few million people in all of India. Now with 8 billion people competing for land and resources the problems seem to be spiraling exponentially. The oligarchs don’t have the will or capacity to solve these problems so economic power must be decentralized to the masses. This is happening slowly and am optimistic that love, peace and equality will prevail.

Sat/lah


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

We vow to live the Buddhadharma in a helpful way, saving sentient beings.

We must never stop living the Bodhisattva way.

Thank you Jundo.

Gassho,

Kyonin

Kyonin ... did you SatToday and Lend-a-Hand!?

I know you did, because you do each and every day! But don't forget to mark so.

Gassho, Jundo

SatLah

[Jundo]

I usually avoid politics in this forum, but this hits a little close to home. I have friends and some family there, both Israeli and Palestinian friends.

So, believing the Buddhism is not just about some "other world," but also offers this world solutions, I present ... wise or foolish or crazy or not ...

~~~~

JUNDO COHEN'S 'VOICE IN THE WILDERNESS' PEACE PLAN
Written to my fellow folks of Jewish heritage

We keep repeating the same mistakes decade by decade, merely creating the next generation of hate and terrorists. We never learn. Once again, we will be repeating the same cycle that has failed to work for nearly a century. Killing their children because they killed our children is not the answer, and we should not become monsters too. We say it is "justice," and they say they are acting to get "justice" ... while ignoring what may be effective to truly solve the problem.

Most people want a few things in life: financial prosperity and stability in their livelihoods and businesses (or just money), safety and opportunities for their children's futures, a safe place to live and call their own, some respect. Giving those few things will take some "turning the other cheek," but I guaranty you, will do more for long term peace than all the bullets shot and bombs you can throw. Yes, we need a firm hand against Hamas now ... but NOT against the average Palestinian, even their supporters in the general population.

Do not ask what the other countries did or did not do, do not ask what the Palestinians did or did not do decades ago, do not ask what the average Palestinian "man in the street" thinks or does. Ask what will work. A simple example, I have a neighbor here in Japan that I cannot stand, and he did not like me either (Japan, by the way, a former enemy that became a friend in large part by building economic ties). But I bit my lip, and I offered the terrible neighbor sake, dinner and smiles, respectful compliments, a gift now and then, and now he likes me (honestly, I still cannot stand him, but I smile.) There is now peace. My other neighbors (let's call them Egypt, Jordan, etc.) cannot stand him either, but I do not care about them ... or what was said in the past ... I just care about peace now by what I do, and it works. Should I instead have built a wall around his house, burn down half of it from time to time, kill some of his children, and have expected "peace" from that instead? Should I be surprised if my neighbor were to then seek revenge on me every chance he gets?

The Israeli military, long ago, should have marched into Gaza with a few bullets, but mostly with cash. They should have poured in billions of dollars of investments, economic ties, programs to build hospitals and schools, on the condition that a non-Hamas government be put in place there (even if half an Israeli puppet regime supported by the Israeli military, and even if Israel would have had to militarily "force" the investments and regime change years ago.) They should have made the average person so fat and well fed, dependent on the weal of the Israeli economic peace 'teat,' that few would wish to shoot the golden cow. In other words, they should have gone in there ... rather than with guns and bombs ... with cash in hand, construction projects, business deals, beautification projects, new and comfortable housing, parks, theatres, statues of great Palestinian leaders, farms machines and technology, building mosques, offering scholarships, founding company branches there ... all on condition that people turn from Hamas. They should have made the plan no secret, and publicly proclaimed that that is what they were doing, with a promise to pull out again to their own borders once things were in place and so long as peace remained. Would it have worked? There would be tremendous risks (Hamas would have resisted), but it would certainly have worked better than going in with guns and bombs. Has it been tried elsewhere in the world and succeeded? Yes, there are precedents: Investments and prosperity brought to Northern Ireland was one of the reasons that lasting peace took hold there. https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/isa/cox02/...

Or perhaps we want justice, revenge, to be right, to put a lid on pressure cookers for a time ... but not really lasting peace.

Gassho, Salam, Shalom

Cohen

[Meian]

I usually avoid politics in this forum, but this hits a little close to home. I have friends and distant family there, both Israeli and Palestinian friends.

So, believing the Buddhism is not just about some "other world," but also offers this world solutions, I present ... wise or foolish or crazy or not ...

~~~~

JUNDO COHEN'S 'VOICE IN THE WILDERNESS' PEACE PLAN
Written to my fellow folks of Jewish heritage

We keep repeating the same mistakes decade by decade, merely creating the next generation of hate and terrorists. We never learn. Once again, we will be repeating the same cycle that has failed to work for nearly a century. Killing their children because they killed our children is not the answer, and we should not become monsters too. We say it is "justice," and they say they are acting to get "justice" ... while ignoring what may be effective to truly solve the problem.

Most people want a few things in life: financial prosperity and stability in their livelihoods and businesses (or just money), safety and opportunities for their children's futures, a safe place to live and call their own, some respect. Giving those few things will take some "turning the other cheek," but I guaranty you, will do more for long term peace than all the bullets shot and bombs you can throw. Yes, we need a firm hand against Hamas now ... but NOT against the average Palestinian, even their supporters in the general population.

Do not ask what the other countries did or did not do, do not ask what the Palestinians did or did not do decades ago, do not ask what the average Palestinian "man in the street" thinks or does. Ask what will work. A simple example, I have a neighbor here in Japan that I cannot stand, and he did not like me either (Japan, by the way, a former enemy that became a friend in large part by building economic ties). But I bit my lip, and I offered the terrible neighbor sake, dinner and smiles, respectful compliments, a gift now and then, and now he likes me (honestly, I still cannot stand him, but I smile.) There is now peace. My other neighbors (let's call them Egypt, Jordan, etc.) cannot stand him either, but I do not care about them ... or what was said in the past ... I just care about peace now by what I do, and it works. Should I instead have built a wall around his house, burn down half of it from time to time, kill some of his children, and have expected "peace" from that instead? Should I be surprised if my neighbor were to then seek revenge on me every chance he gets?

The Israeli military, long ago, should have marched into Gaza with a few bullets, but mostly with cash. They should have poured in billions of dollars of investments, economic ties, programs to build hospitals and schools, on the condition that a non-Hamas government be put in place there (even if half an Israeli puppet regime supported by the Israeli military, and even if Israel would have had to militarily "force" the investments and regime change years ago.) They should have made the average person so fat and well fed, dependent on the weal of the Israeli economic peace 'teat,' that few would wish to shoot the golden cow. In other words, they should have gone in there ... rather than with guns and bombs ... with cash in hand, construction projects, business deals, beautification projects, new and comfortable housing, parks, theatres, statues of great Palestinian leaders, farms machines and technology, building mosques, offering scholarships, founding company branches there ... all on condition that people turn from Hamas. They should have made the plan no secret, and publicly proclaimed that that is what they were doing, with a promise to pull out again to their own borders once things were in place and so long as peace remained. Would it have worked? There would be tremendous risks (Hamas would have resisted), but it would certainly have worked better than going in with guns and bombs. Has it been tried elsewhere in the world and succeeded? Yes, there are precedents: Investments and prosperity brought to Northern Ireland was one of the reasons that lasting peace took hold there. https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/isa/cox02/...

Or perhaps we want justice, revenge, to be right, to put a lid on pressure cookers for a time ... but not really lasting peace.

Gassho, Salam, Shalom

Cohen

Thank you for this, Jundo. [emoji1374][emoji1374][emoji1374]

Whether I agree with some details or not, overall the concept of treating one's neighbor well is - while very difficult at times - a much better option than how we handle disputes and old grudges now.

Reminds me of Hillel: "That which is hateful to you, do not do unto your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."

I agree that handling things differently from the beginning could have prevented this awful war now, and all the bloodshed since Israel's birth. And I hope and pray fervently that a genocide does not happen....

gassho, Salaam, Shalom

meian st.lh

(Ahavah bat Sarah v'Avraham z"l)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chikyou]

I usually avoid politics in this forum, but this hits a little close to home. I have friends and some family there, both Israeli and Palestinian friends.

So, believing the Buddhism is not just about some "other world," but also offers this world solutions, I present ... wise or foolish or crazy or not ...

~~~~

JUNDO COHEN'S 'VOICE IN THE WILDERNESS' PEACE PLAN
Written to my fellow folks of Jewish heritage

We keep repeating the same mistakes decade by decade, merely creating the next generation of hate and terrorists. We never learn. Once again, we will be repeating the same cycle that has failed to work for nearly a century. Killing their children because they killed our children is not the answer, and we should not become monsters too. We say it is "justice," and they say they are acting to get "justice" ... while ignoring what may be effective to truly solve the problem.

Most people want a few things in life: financial prosperity and stability in their livelihoods and businesses (or just money), safety and opportunities for their children's futures, a safe place to live and call their own, some respect. Giving those few things will take some "turning the other cheek," but I guaranty you, will do more for long term peace than all the bullets shot and bombs you can throw. Yes, we need a firm hand against Hamas now ... but NOT against the average Palestinian, even their supporters in the general population.

Do not ask what the other countries did or did not do, do not ask what the Palestinians did or did not do decades ago, do not ask what the average Palestinian "man in the street" thinks or does. Ask what will work. A simple example, I have a neighbor here in Japan that I cannot stand, and he did not like me either (Japan, by the way, a former enemy that became a friend in large part by building economic ties). But I bit my lip, and I offered the terrible neighbor sake, dinner and smiles, respectful compliments, a gift now and then, and now he likes me (honestly, I still cannot stand him, but I smile.) There is now peace. My other neighbors (let's call them Egypt, Jordan, etc.) cannot stand him either, but I do not care about them ... or what was said in the past ... I just care about peace now by what I do, and it works. Should I instead have built a wall around his house, burn down half of it from time to time, kill some of his children, and have expected "peace" from that instead? Should I be surprised if my neighbor were to then seek revenge on me every chance he gets?

The Israeli military, long ago, should have marched into Gaza with a few bullets, but mostly with cash. They should have poured in billions of dollars of investments, economic ties, programs to build hospitals and schools, on the condition that a non-Hamas government be put in place there (even if half an Israeli puppet regime supported by the Israeli military, and even if Israel would have had to militarily "force" the investments and regime change years ago.) They should have made the average person so fat and well fed, dependent on the weal of the Israeli economic peace 'teat,' that few would wish to shoot the golden cow. In other words, they should have gone in there ... rather than with guns and bombs ... with cash in hand, construction projects, business deals, beautification projects, new and comfortable housing, parks, theatres, statues of great Palestinian leaders, farms machines and technology, building mosques, offering scholarships, founding company branches there ... all on condition that people turn from Hamas. They should have made the plan no secret, and publicly proclaimed that that is what they were doing, with a promise to pull out again to their own borders once things were in place and so long as peace remained. Would it have worked? There would be tremendous risks (Hamas would have resisted), but it would certainly have worked better than going in with guns and bombs. Has it been tried elsewhere in the world and succeeded? Yes, there are precedents: Investments and prosperity brought to Northern Ireland was one of the reasons that lasting peace took hold there. https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/isa/cox02/...

Or perhaps we want justice, revenge, to be right, to put a lid on pressure cookers for a time ... but not really lasting peace.

Gassho, Salam, Shalom

Cohen

Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

[Anthony]

I usually avoid politics in this forum, but this hits a little close to home. I have friends and some family there, both Israeli and Palestinian friends.

So, believing the Buddhism is not just about some "other world," but also offers this world solutions, I present ... wise or foolish or crazy or not ...

~~~~

JUNDO COHEN'S 'VOICE IN THE WILDERNESS' PEACE PLAN
Written to my fellow folks of Jewish heritage

We keep repeating the same mistakes decade by decade, merely creating the next generation of hate and terrorists. We never learn. Once again, we will be repeating the same cycle that has failed to work for nearly a century. Killing their children because they killed our children is not the answer, and we should not become monsters too. We say it is "justice," and they say they are acting to get "justice" ... while ignoring what may be effective to truly solve the problem.

Most people want a few things in life: financial prosperity and stability in their livelihoods and businesses (or just money), safety and opportunities for their children's futures, a safe place to live and call their own, some respect. Giving those few things will take some "turning the other cheek," but I guaranty you, will do more for long term peace than all the bullets shot and bombs you can throw. Yes, we need a firm hand against Hamas now ... but NOT against the average Palestinian, even their supporters in the general population.

Do not ask what the other countries did or did not do, do not ask what the Palestinians did or did not do decades ago, do not ask what the average Palestinian "man in the street" thinks or does. Ask what will work. A simple example, I have a neighbor here in Japan that I cannot stand, and he did not like me either (Japan, by the way, a former enemy that became a friend in large part by building economic ties). But I bit my lip, and I offered the terrible neighbor sake, dinner and smiles, respectful compliments, a gift now and then, and now he likes me (honestly, I still cannot stand him, but I smile.) There is now peace. My other neighbors (let's call them Egypt, Jordan, etc.) cannot stand him either, but I do not care about them ... or what was said in the past ... I just care about peace now by what I do, and it works. Should I instead have built a wall around his house, burn down half of it from time to time, kill some of his children, and have expected "peace" from that instead? Should I be surprised if my neighbor were to then seek revenge on me every chance he gets?

The Israeli military, long ago, should have marched into Gaza with a few bullets, but mostly with cash. They should have poured in billions of dollars of investments, economic ties, programs to build hospitals and schools, on the condition that a non-Hamas government be put in place there (even if half an Israeli puppet regime supported by the Israeli military, and even if Israel would have had to militarily "force" the investments and regime change years ago.) They should have made the average person so fat and well fed, dependent on the weal of the Israeli economic peace 'teat,' that few would wish to shoot the golden cow. In other words, they should have gone in there ... rather than with guns and bombs ... with cash in hand, construction projects, business deals, beautification projects, new and comfortable housing, parks, theatres, statues of great Palestinian leaders, farms machines and technology, building mosques, offering scholarships, founding company branches there ... all on condition that people turn from Hamas. They should have made the plan no secret, and publicly proclaimed that that is what they were doing, with a promise to pull out again to their own borders once things were in place and so long as peace remained. Would it have worked? There would be tremendous risks (Hamas would have resisted), but it would certainly have worked better than going in with guns and bombs. Has it been tried elsewhere in the world and succeeded? Yes, there are precedents: Investments and prosperity brought to Northern Ireland was one of the reasons that lasting peace took hold there. https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/isa/cox02/...

Or perhaps we want justice, revenge, to be right, to put a lid on pressure cookers for a time ... but not really lasting peace.

Gassho, Salam, Shalom

Cohen

"Cash in hand", investment, the desire to truly and materially improve the lives of others could be the "weapons of love" you speak of in your first post of this thread. When people's children are loved and taken care of, when everyone has a roof over their head and food to eat and the dignity of good work, everyone will have peace.

-Anthony

Gasshō,
Sat today. LaH.

[Jundo]

I raised "non-lethal" weapons at the start of this thread, not really connecting in my mind to the current, tragic hostage crisis in Gaza, in which Hamas combatants and hostages are very likely together in many locations, including in a vast underground tunnel network beneath Gaza.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67097124

In 2002, Russia faced its own hostage situation when Chechen fighters took over a theatre in Moscow during a crowded performance. The Russians pumped in some substance, possibly a fentanyl gas, which knocked out almost everyone in the theatre, allowing the hostage takeover to end, but also resulting in a large number of deaths among hostages. I researched these events for my book.

It is very likely that some such methods will be used in the current situation. If such substances are used, let us hope that there has been some progress from the very crude substances and medical response that the Russians used 20 years ago. It is not the "love and fraternity" drugs that I hope for someday but, perhaps, if things have improved, it would be a (relatively) non-lethal way to save lives where bombs will not do.

The Moscow theater hostage crisis (also known as the 2002 Nord-Ost siege) was the seizure of the crowded Dubrovka Theater by Chechen terrorists on 23 October 2002, which involved 850 hostages and ended with Russian security services killing or causing the death of at least 170 people. ...

... Early in the morning before dawn, at around 5:00 a.m. Moscow time, the searchlights that had been illuminating the main entrance to the theater went out. Inside, although many hostages at first took the gas (aerosol) to be smoke from a fire, it soon became apparent to gunmen and hostages alike that a mysterious gas had been pumped into the building. ... The Chechens, some of whom were equipped with gas masks, responded by firing blindly at the Russian positions outside. After thirty minutes, when the gas had taken effect, a physical assault on the building commenced. The combined forces entered through numerous building openings, including the roof, the basement, and finally the front door. When the shooting began, the terrorists told their hostages to lean forward in the theater seats and cover their heads behind the seats. Hostages reported that some people in the audience fell asleep, and some of the gunmen put on respirators. As the terrorists and hostages alike began to fall unconscious, several of the female terrorists made a dash for the balcony but passed out before they reached the stairs. They were later found shot dead.


At 7:00 a.m., rescuers began carrying the bodies of hostages out of the building. Bodies were laid in rows in the foyer and on the pavement at the main entrance to the TC, unprotected from falling rain and snow. None of the bodies witnessed by The Guardian correspondent Nick Paton Walsh had bullet wounds or showed signs of bleeding, but "their faces were waxy, white and drawn, their eyes open and blank." Shortly, the entire space was filled with bodies of the dead and those unconscious from the gas but still alive.

Ambulances were standing by and ordinary city buses were brought in. Medical workers were expecting to treat victims of explosions and gunfire but not a secret chemical agent. If the drug used was indeed a fentanyl derivative or other μ⁠-⁠opioid receptor agonist, an opioid receptor antagonist drug like naloxone would have counteracted the chemical agent's effects, but would have had to be administered by rescue workers immediately upon arriving. Some reports said the drug was used to save some hostages.

... The number of estimated casualties varies widely because many hostages remained unaccounted for and were not included in the official list (see below). Some estimates have put the civilian death toll at more than 200, with 204 names on one list, or even 300, including people who died during the year after the siege from complications from the poison gas. Some former hostages and relatives of the victims claim that the death toll from the chemical agent is being kept secret. According to official numbers, 40 terrorists and about 130 hostages died during the raid or in the following days.

Tragically, the current situation is much, much more complicated as the hostages are likely widely dispersed.

There will be great carnage. Let us sit and offer Metta for peace.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Ryumon]

A Comment on the Situation in Israel-Palestine: We must consider new ways ...

Good point about Northern Ireland, but the context is very different. There, the two sides coexisted in the same geographic space. In the Middle East, the Palestinians have been forced into several extremely small spaces. It can probably seem more urgent to resolve this sort of difference when people are cohabiting, than when they are not.

From my limited perspective, it looks like part of what happened in Northern Ireland is that the younger generation didn’t want this separation anymore, which allowed a peace process to occur. I’m not sure that’s the case in the Middle East.

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

[Kokuu]

I think that article makes the point of just how different the Northern Ireland situation was to the Middle East. However, I also think it does provide some degree of insight into how we can go from bullets and bombs in the 1970s and 1980s to a peace settlement in 1998.

As Ryumon points out, both sides there became sick of the bloodshed, especially younger generations who seemed to buy into religious identity less than their forebears (although it was undoubtedly still present) and who wanted a future not rooted in hate.

There didn't seem to be a movement towards loving the other side for the most part, but a realisation that continued violence was hurting each side as much as the losses they inflicted on the other, and people became sick of burying their own dead. At present, there has been no home governance in N Ireland for nearly two years because the two sides cannot reach an agreement, but there has at least been no return to paramilitary violence.

For negotation to happen, you need leaders on both sides to stand up and say 'enough' and to be trusted by their people. However, there remain significant hurdles to peace between Israel and Palestine, including Hamas themselves and the continuation of illegal settlement on Palestinian land and what the UN describes as a policy of apartheid.

Wiser and more knowledgeable heads than mine have looked at this situation and been unable to find an answer, but it seems that any movement towards peace and reconciliation that is inspired by the Northern Irish peace process, or what happened in South Africa, can only be a good thing. For that you need people like Nelson Mandela, Desmond Tutu, David Trimble and John Hume who are willing to draw a line under past grievances and look to the future.

At present, Israel and Palestine seem further away from that than ever, but I can only hope that one day the prospect of peace feels stronger than the need to continue the hatred.

Apologies for running long.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Onkai]

Thank you all for this thread. Jundo, I think you have a lot of great ideas. We need discussions like this to pave the way to peace. The wars that are going on are unspeakably disturbing.

Gassho, Onkai
Sat lah

[Alina]

Thank you all for your reflections on this difficult situation.

Jundo, your ideas reminded me of a book, "Island" by Aldous Huxley. In it there's a society that uses a drug to help its members access states of mind so peaceful and transcendent that they no longer have a desire to do harm, and they educate and organize themselves in pacifist ways on all levels (work, parenting, civic life, etc). The book also shows the problems that they face with other nations and with those individuals that even in those conditions cannot simply "live in peace". Is something like that what you were proposing above?

Maybe something like what is described in the book would help to de-radicalize those who have become fanatics and think that violence is the way... I do not know the answer, it is such a complex problem, so old and so few actors involved with the will to coexist peacefully

https://www.amazon.com/Island-Aldous-Huxley/dp/0061561797

Gassho
Alina
STLAH

[Jundo]

Thank you all for your reflections on this difficult situation.

Jundo, your ideas reminded me of a book, "Island" by Aldous Huxley. In it there's a society that uses a drug to help its members access states of mind so peaceful and transcendent that they no longer have a desire to do harm, and they educate and organize themselves in pacifist ways on all levels (work, parenting, civic life, etc). The book also shows the problems that they face with other nations and with those individuals that even in those conditions cannot simply "live in peace". Is something like that what you were proposing above?

Maybe something like what is described in the book would help to de-radicalize those who have become fanatics and think that violence is the way... I do not know the answer, it is such a complex problem, so old and so few actors involved with the will to coexist peacefully

https://www.amazon.com/Island-Aldous-Huxley/dp/0061561797

Gassho
Alina
STLAH

Thank you. I will put Aldous at the top of the reading list. He was a Vedanta practitioner, by the way, so some sympathies to Eastern ways. His Brave New World is also a caution as to what can go right, and horribly wrong, if future technologies are taken too far.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Dojin]

I have wrote a long answer but it got deleted for some reason. so i will write a shorter one or atleast try.
to those of you who don't know me. i havent been around much lately.
i was part of treeleaf way back when it was about 100 people or so. so a long time ago.

I have lived in Israel for 31 years since i was 6 and finally moved to the US about a year and a half ago.
it is true that israel is controlled by a very right winged nationalist government and a prime minister that basically sold out his country to avoid going to jail and stay in power he partnered with radical right winged nationalists and very orthodox religious parties.
they have been growing in numbers and political clout for the last 20 years and have used their positions to spread their propaganda.
but it is not anywhere near to what hamas is doing. hamas is a terrorsit group that uses fear and violence to control the population that is under their rule. they use poverty and eradication of dissidents to spread their twisted world views that is basically the same thing that is going in iran but only on a much smaller scale.

as far as israel being an apartheid state, that is simply not true. arabs are free citizens and are treated as such. even if the radicals in power would love to change that and turn them in to 2nd class citizen, they are still living in a country that is a democratic society and it can't happen unless they somehow manage to overturn it and become a dictatorship.

the ideas you all have pointed are great and i do believe that the only one that would work is bringing in prosperity to the population in gaza. but to do that would require going in there rooting hamas and the other radical terrorist groups like the islamic jihad (another terrorist group based in gaza with over 10,000 members that are even more radical than hamas) taking control of the entire area and keeping it under military occupation and than re-educating the population while bringing in prosperity and advancement and improvement to their lives. that cannot happen with the current regime there that uses all the humanitarian aid and money to just build up their own power and weapons to attack israel and keep the population under control with fear and violence and elimination of opposition by force. it would take decades since the current population is so well ingrained and have been taught to hate israel as the only reason for their misfortune. from kids tv shows to school teaching them to hate and kill is a good thing. to their own parents telling them from day 1 that if you kill many israelis and die you will be a martyr and they would be proud of them and it is something to aspire to.
i fear israel can never do that, it lacks resources to do so and most of all the international community wold never stand for that. it would require years of military occupation and hundreds if not thousands of lives lost on all sides. maybe a country like the US could do that with their resources and political prowess and standing in the world but israel has long lost the battle for public opinion.

as for the events of the 7th of October. i have seen the videos that are not publicly shown on the news of the atrocities that were committed that day, from people of all ages brutally being killed including babies and soldiers bodies mutilated and ripped to pieces by terrorist while screaming alla akbar (god is mighty) to people being beheaded with a garden hoe. truly graphic and the stuff of nightmares. i have heard stories of babies only 6 month old having a knife stuck through their head until it comes out the other side. even a month since it happened still some bodies cannot be identified since they just smashed the heads and faces or cut them off completely and they are not identifiable.
i still dont know who to reconcile this and get over it. it is referred to as israels 9/11.


sorry for renting so long.


Gassho, D.

[Doshin]

I have wrote a long answer but it got deleted for some reason. so i will write a shorter one or atleast try.
to those of you who don't know me. i havent been around much lately.
i was part of treeleaf way back when it was about 100 people or so. so a long time ago.

I have lived in Israel for 31 years since i was 6 and finally moved to the US about a year and a half ago.
it is true that israel is controlled by a very right winged nationalist government and a prime minister that basically sold out his country to avoid going to jail and stay in power he partnered with radical right winged nationalists and very orthodox religious parties.
they have been growing in numbers and political clout for the last 20 years and have used their positions to spread their propaganda.
but it is not anywhere near to what hamas is doing. hamas is a terrorsit group that uses fear and violence to control the population that is under their rule. they use poverty and eradication of dissidents to spread their twisted world views that is basically the same thing that is going in iran but only on a much smaller scale.

as far as israel being an apartheid state, that is simply not true. arabs are free citizens and are treated as such. even if the radicals in power would love to change that and turn them in to 2nd class citizen, they are still living in a country that is a democratic society and it can't happen unless they somehow manage to overturn it and become a dictatorship.

the ideas you all have pointed are great and i do believe that the only one that would work is bringing in prosperity to the population in gaza. but to do that would require going in there rooting hamas and the other radical terrorist groups like the islamic jihad (another terrorist group based in gaza with over 10,000 members that are even more radical than hamas) taking control of the entire area and keeping it under military occupation and than re-educating the population while bringing in prosperity and advancement and improvement to their lives. that cannot happen with the current regime there that uses all the humanitarian aid and money to just build up their own power and weapons to attack israel and keep the population under control with fear and violence and elimination of opposition by force. it would take decades since the current population is so well ingrained and have been taught to hate israel as the only reason for their misfortune. from kids tv shows to school teaching them to hate and kill is a good thing. to their own parents telling them from day 1 that if you kill many israelis and die you will be a martyr and they would be proud of them and it is something to aspire to.
i fear israel can never do that, it lacks resources to do so and most of all the international community wold never stand for that. it would require years of military occupation and hundreds if not thousands of lives lost on all sides. maybe a country like the US could do that with their resources and political prowess and standing in the world but israel has long lost the battle for public opinion.

as for the events of the 7th of October. i have seen the videos that are not publicly shown on the news of the atrocities that were committed that day, from people of all ages brutally being killed including babies and soldiers bodies mutilated and ripped to pieces by terrorist while screaming alla akbar (god is mighty) to people being beheaded with a garden hoe. truly graphic and the stuff of nightmares. i have heard stories of babies only 6 month old having a knife stuck through their head until it comes out the other side. even a month since it happened still some bodies cannot be identified since they just smashed the heads and faces or cut them off completely and they are not identifiable.
i still dont know who to reconcile this and get over it. it is referred to as israels 9/11.


sorry for renting so long.


Gassho, D.

Thank you for sharing the perspective of one who lives there and sees and hears things we so far away have difficulty perceiving. As I posted earlier in this thread I am horrified about what happened in Israel.

I am also horrified by the number of civilians being killed in Gaza. You are aware of the growing number of people in the US who see the bombardment of Gaza and the mounting death toll and are speaking up against it. Please share your perspective on the continuing loss of life. How do the people of Israel feel? How can the loss of life be minimized?

Thank you for your thoughts.

Doshin
Stlah

[Jundo]

I like to keep overt politics out of our discussion, but it is hard on this issue.

Somehow, the chain of violence needs to be broken. What has exploded now is the result of the fuel that has been put in place for years. Nobody is pure here. What we are seeing now is the result of the same policies of the past, repeated for decades, being repeated now. Only more hate, more suffering, and future violence will result when the pressure cooker yet again explodes.

The Israeli people need to think outside the box right now, not just do what has always been done. Right now, children are dying at the hands of both sides, and none of it is acceptable or excusable.

Dojin, I will PM you so that I can discuss this with you more, as I don't want to debate this here.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah