A Comment on the Situation in Israel-Palestine: We must consider new ways ...

[Seiga]

I worked for several years at the International Research and Documentation Centre War Crime Trials, here in Marburg. I worked on the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Congo, Cambodia and a lot on what happened in the concentration camps in Europe and under Japanese occupation during the Second World War. Much of what i read about it has perhaps always cast a dark, black shadow over my heart. It is like a deep rooted sadness.

It is true that many crimes were only stopped through the use of weapons. Whether by NATO in Kosovo, by the Tutsi militia in Rwanda, Vietnamese troops in Cambodia, known masses in Europe in 1945 and so on... some think the atomic bomb shortened suffering in the Pacific War. Let the scholars argue about that.

But what is also true is that the cycle of violence remains the same. If it is not broken, the history of killing will repeat itself. The history of suffering.

That's why I'm completely with Jundo. The chain of violence must be broken. I don't know the solutions for big politics. But I can draw conclusions for myself in any case. One of them was and is that I ended my reserve service in the German army after thinking long and hard about my vows.

Just my thoughts.

Gasshō,
One Love
Seiga
Stlah


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[Kokuu]

as for the events of the 7th of October. i have seen the videos that are not publicly shown on the news of the atrocities that were committed that day, from people of all ages brutally being killed including babies and soldiers bodies mutilated and ripped to pieces by terrorist while screaming alla akbar (god is mighty) to people being beheaded with a garden hoe. truly graphic and the stuff of nightmares. i have heard stories of babies only 6 month old having a knife stuck through their head until it comes out the other side. even a month since it happened still some bodies cannot be identified since they just smashed the heads and faces or cut them off completely and they are not identifiable.
i still dont know who to reconcile this and get over it. it is referred to as israels 9/11.

I am so sorry that you had to remotely witness the horrific loss of life of your former compatriots, Dojin. That must be so hard.

There is no justification for the events of October 7.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Jishin]

I usually avoid politics in this forum, but this hits a little close to home. I have friends and some family there, both Israeli and Palestinian friends.

So, believing the Buddhism is not just about some "other world," but also offers this world solutions, I present ... wise or foolish or crazy or not ...

~~~~

JUNDO COHEN'S 'VOICE IN THE WILDERNESS' PEACE PLAN
Written to my fellow folks of Jewish heritage

We keep repeating the same mistakes decade by decade, merely creating the next generation of hate and terrorists. We never learn. Once again, we will be repeating the same cycle that has failed to work for nearly a century. Killing their children because they killed our children is not the answer, and we should not become monsters too. We say it is "justice," and they say they are acting to get "justice" ... while ignoring what may be effective to truly solve the problem.

Most people want a few things in life: financial prosperity and stability in their livelihoods and businesses (or just money), safety and opportunities for their children's futures, a safe place to live and call their own, some respect. Giving those few things will take some "turning the other cheek," but I guaranty you, will do more for long term peace than all the bullets shot and bombs you can throw. Yes, we need a firm hand against Hamas now ... but NOT against the average Palestinian, even their supporters in the general population.

Do not ask what the other countries did or did not do, do not ask what the Palestinians did or did not do decades ago, do not ask what the average Palestinian "man in the street" thinks or does. Ask what will work. A simple example, I have a neighbor here in Japan that I cannot stand, and he did not like me either (Japan, by the way, a former enemy that became a friend in large part by building economic ties). But I bit my lip, and I offered the terrible neighbor sake, dinner and smiles, respectful compliments, a gift now and then, and now he likes me (honestly, I still cannot stand him, but I smile.) There is now peace. My other neighbors (let's call them Egypt, Jordan, etc.) cannot stand him either, but I do not care about them ... or what was said in the past ... I just care about peace now by what I do, and it works. Should I instead have built a wall around his house, burn down half of it from time to time, kill some of his children, and have expected "peace" from that instead? Should I be surprised if my neighbor were to then seek revenge on me every chance he gets?

The Israeli military, long ago, should have marched into Gaza with a few bullets, but mostly with cash. They should have poured in billions of dollars of investments, economic ties, programs to build hospitals and schools, on the condition that a non-Hamas government be put in place there (even if half an Israeli puppet regime supported by the Israeli military, and even if Israel would have had to militarily "force" the investments and regime change years ago.) They should have made the average person so fat and well fed, dependent on the weal of the Israeli economic peace 'teat,' that few would wish to shoot the golden cow. In other words, they should have gone in there ... rather than with guns and bombs ... with cash in hand, construction projects, business deals, beautification projects, new and comfortable housing, parks, theatres, statues of great Palestinian leaders, farms machines and technology, building mosques, offering scholarships, founding company branches there ... all on condition that people turn from Hamas. They should have made the plan no secret, and publicly proclaimed that that is what they were doing, with a promise to pull out again to their own borders once things were in place and so long as peace remained. Would it have worked? There would be tremendous risks (Hamas would have resisted), but it would certainly have worked better than going in with guns and bombs. Has it been tried elsewhere in the world and succeeded? Yes, there are precedents: Investments and prosperity brought to Northern Ireland was one of the reasons that lasting peace took hold there. https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/isa/cox02/...

Or perhaps we want justice, revenge, to be right, to put a lid on pressure cookers for a time ... but not really lasting peace.

Gassho, Salam, Shalom

Cohen

Hi Jundo,

A Hebrew teacher of mine once opined that there is no “cure” to the conflict. She explained that the conflict is like most illnesses in medicine that can be treated but not cured. Sometimes an inflamed appendix can be removed and this is an actual cure. But most everything else requires life long treatment, either by medicine or behavioral changes.

Her explanation made sense to me. The condition unfortunately will never go away. It flares up from time to time requiring treatment.

My 2 cents.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Jishin]

I have wrote a long answer but it got deleted for some reason. so i will write a shorter one or atleast try.
to those of you who don't know me. i havent been around much lately.
i was part of treeleaf way back when it was about 100 people or so. so a long time ago.

I have lived in Israel for 31 years since i was 6 and finally moved to the US about a year and a half ago.
it is true that israel is controlled by a very right winged nationalist government and a prime minister that basically sold out his country to avoid going to jail and stay in power he partnered with radical right winged nationalists and very orthodox religious parties.
they have been growing in numbers and political clout for the last 20 years and have used their positions to spread their propaganda.
but it is not anywhere near to what hamas is doing. hamas is a terrorsit group that uses fear and violence to control the population that is under their rule. they use poverty and eradication of dissidents to spread their twisted world views that is basically the same thing that is going in iran but only on a much smaller scale.

as far as israel being an apartheid state, that is simply not true. arabs are free citizens and are treated as such. even if the radicals in power would love to change that and turn them in to 2nd class citizen, they are still living in a country that is a democratic society and it can't happen unless they somehow manage to overturn it and become a dictatorship.

the ideas you all have pointed are great and i do believe that the only one that would work is bringing in prosperity to the population in gaza. but to do that would require going in there rooting hamas and the other radical terrorist groups like the islamic jihad (another terrorist group based in gaza with over 10,000 members that are even more radical than hamas) taking control of the entire area and keeping it under military occupation and than re-educating the population while bringing in prosperity and advancement and improvement to their lives. that cannot happen with the current regime there that uses all the humanitarian aid and money to just build up their own power and weapons to attack israel and keep the population under control with fear and violence and elimination of opposition by force. it would take decades since the current population is so well ingrained and have been taught to hate israel as the only reason for their misfortune. from kids tv shows to school teaching them to hate and kill is a good thing. to their own parents telling them from day 1 that if you kill many israelis and die you will be a martyr and they would be proud of them and it is something to aspire to.
i fear israel can never do that, it lacks resources to do so and most of all the international community wold never stand for that. it would require years of military occupation and hundreds if not thousands of lives lost on all sides. maybe a country like the US could do that with their resources and political prowess and standing in the world but israel has long lost the battle for public opinion.

as for the events of the 7th of October. i have seen the videos that are not publicly shown on the news of the atrocities that were committed that day, from people of all ages brutally being killed including babies and soldiers bodies mutilated and ripped to pieces by terrorist while screaming alla akbar (god is mighty) to people being beheaded with a garden hoe. truly graphic and the stuff of nightmares. i have heard stories of babies only 6 month old having a knife stuck through their head until it comes out the other side. even a month since it happened still some bodies cannot be identified since they just smashed the heads and faces or cut them off completely and they are not identifiable.
i still dont know who to reconcile this and get over it. it is referred to as israels 9/11.


sorry for renting so long.


Gassho, D.

אני מסכים איתך במאה אחוז

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Dojin]

Thank you for sharing the perspective of one who lives there and sees and hears things we so far away have difficulty perceiving. As I posted earlier in this thread I am horrified about what happened in Israel.

I am also horrified by the number of civilians being killed in Gaza. You are aware of the growing number of people in the US who see the bombardment of Gaza and the mounting death toll and are speaking up against it. Please share your perspective on the continuing loss of life. How do the people of Israel feel? How can the loss of life be minimized?

Thank you for your thoughts.

Doshin
Stlah

Yes there is a loss of life and unfortunately not much can be done about it. Atleast not by israel. Hamas uses civilian population as human shields. They build thier strongolds and weapon manufacturing facilities and stockpiles specifically in civilian buildings and hope it is a deternt . Or if they get blown up wven better propaganda.... what israel used to do is they would drop fliers from planes and inform the population that this building is going to be bombed at a specific time and they should evacuate. Giving them enough time to flee and take as many belongings as possible while not allowing enough time for hamas to fully relocate thier equipment. And about an hour before the people that are still there would receive a phone call in arabic telling them to get out( the use of technology to pinpoint pepoples location to preserve life). Hamas wiuld usually prevent people from leaving, and sacrifice tjrm in the airstrike. It would give them a way of soreading propaganda by blaming israel for civilian life loss. And even more importantly use it as a way to turn the population to thier side. Both domestic and international.
Now after the October 7th events israel calls about 60 minutes before and just lets them know h
Let out or die.

[Jundo]

I typically say that we leave politics at the door in this Sangha. Perhaps because I am Jewish, I feel that I must allow a little more discussion on this crisis than usual, at risk of breaking that rule, and at risk of somewhat alienating my dear friends, Dojin and Jishin. Pardon me for breaking my own rule, and for saying more than I usually would.

There is little doubt that Israel is now engaging in the very commendable practice of alerting people in neighborhoods, with phone calls and fliers, even at risk of its own operations. This talk by the officer in charge is worth a watch, and should be taken at face value. Israel is taking important steps to prevent civilian casualties through such measures. It should be better publicized.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bM4q3wzXRg&t=172s

As well, the actions of Hamas were and are criminal, inhumane, and Hamas needs to be stopped. Let us agree that Hamas horribly abuses the great majority of Palestinians in Gaza, using them as human shields. The above video provides ample evidence of Hamas' disregard of the safety of their own people. They must be stopped, and let us assume that that requires a hard military response.

Even so, important questions remain.

To begin, these events are, in great part, the result of decades of missed opportunities for peace. Hamas is, in part, the creation and result of those policies. Should the Palestinians, both in Gaza and the West Bank, have been treated differently, not invaded by settlers (not just a West Bank issue, but an insult to all Palestinians), not left to grinding poverty behind walls, granted a homeland to call their own (coupled with decades of investment, development and economic ties financed by the Israeli government and businesses, money and prosperity being the greatest propaganda weapon to win hearts and minds) by which the poverty and despair which nurtures Hamas could have been rechanneled in other directions through the years? Is that not, in fact, what needs to be done even now? Was there not tolerance and encouragement of Hamas by the Israeli government for years, hoping to pit them against the Palestinian Authority to weaken by dividing? By repeating the behavior of "invade, destroy, leave" of the past, is not Israel merely setting itself up for Hamas 3.0, more hate, placing a lid on the pressure cooker, inviting a repeat of these events (or worse) in the years to come?

Furthermore, as many steps as Israel is taking to reduce civilian casualties, could it do more? Why bomb from the first day before refugees had a chance to leave the north? Why prevent humanitarian aid of food, water and medicine? Why reduce hospitals to barbaric conditions? Could women and children have been evacuated to internationally run refugee camps in the Negev (it would not have saved everyone, but it might have saved thousands of lives: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blog...QssYkPa7Rxog)? Could more finely targeted weapons be used, rather than bombs which take out entire neighborhoods to kill a single man? (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/04/u...5j0h1PumsGCDTA) These are questions of international law and proportionality which I am not prepared or competent to answer. Still, I am left with the feeling that so much more could have been done. Should Israel, even now, announce that there will be a Palestinian homeland, that the land shall be rebuilt, made prosperous, on condition that there be a non-violent government in the future? Or, is the plan to return to the status quo which helped create this disaster? Is not Israel, now, being drawn into the very trap of destroying the peace process which Hamas desired? (https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...qPN92YvQQYVIfw)

Finally, as a Buddhist, I must simply care for the children, other innocent civilians, of both sides. What is the best way? It is not a matter of "who is right, who is wrong," for the killing of children is always wrong. Could that wrong have been reduced? Was all done that could be done? Was there a way to hit Hamas hard without doing all the damage to innocent lives that has resulted?

These are my concerns.

Again, I apologize for breaking my own rule on political discussion. I really do not wish to get into a debate about who is right, who is wrong, what was done 50 years ago by whom to whom. I have lost friends this week for expressing such views, and I hope not to lose more.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

PS - In the past few weeks, settler violence against Palestinians on the West Bank has skyrocketed, including Palestinians beings forced out of their villages to, of course, have the land added to the settlements ... all in the past weeks ... And then we wonder what the Palestinians could possibly be angry about ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy6g_GgKx1s

[Jishin]

A Comment on the Situation in Israel-Palestine: We must consider new ways ...

Even so, important questions remain.

To begin, these events are, in great part, the result of decades of missed opportunities for peace.

1 - Hamas is, in part, the creation and result of those policies.

2- Should the Palestinians, both in Gaza and the West Bank, have been treated differently, not invaded by settlers (not just a West Bank issue, but an insult to all Palestinians),

3- not left to grinding poverty behind walls, granted a homeland to call their own (coupled with decades of investment, development and economic ties financed by the Israeli government and businesses, money and prosperity being the greatest propaganda weapon to win hearts and minds) by which the poverty and despair which nurtures Hamas could have been rechanneled in other directions through the years?

4- Is that not, in fact, what needs to be done even now? Was there not tolerance and encouragement of Hamas by the Israeli government for years, hoping to pit them against the Palestinian Authority to weaken by dividing?

5- By repeating the behavior of "invade, destroy, leave" of the past, is not Israel merely setting itself up for Hamas 3.0, more hate, placing a lid on the pressure cooker, inviting a repeat of these events (or worse) in the years to come?

6- Furthermore, as many steps as Israel is taking to reduce civilian casualties, could it do more?

7- Why bomb from the first day before refugees had a chance to leave the north?

8- Why prevent humanitarian aid of food, water and medicine?

9- Why reduce hospitals to barbaric conditions?

7- Could women and children have been evacuated to internationally run refugee camps in the Negev (it would not have saved everyone, but it might have saved thousands of lives: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blog...QssYkPa7Rxog)?

8- Could more finely targeted weapons be used, rather than bombs which take out entire neighborhoods to kill a single man? (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/04/u...5j0h1PumsGCDTA)

9- These are questions of international law and proportionality which I am not prepared or competent to answer.

10- Still, I am left with the feeling that so much more could have been done.

11- Should Israel, even now, announce that there will be a Palestinian homeland, that the land shall be rebuilt, made prosperous, on condition that there be a non-violent government in the future?

12 - Or, is the plan to return to the status quo which helped create this disaster? Is not Israel, now, being drawn into the very trap of destroying the peace process which Hamas desired? (https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...qPN92YvQQYVIfw)

13- Finally, as a Buddhist, I must simply care for the children, other innocent civilians, of both sides. What is the best way? It is not a matter of "who is right, who is wrong," for the killing of children is always wrong. Could that wrong have been reduced? Was all done that could be done?

14- Was there a way to hit Hamas hard without doing all the damage to innocent lives that has resulted?

15- These are my concerns.

1 - Hamas is, in part, the creation and result of those policies.

I control my voluntary opinions and actions. I am responsible for what I create and do not create. If somebody slaps me, I may chose to turn the other cheek, hit back, call the police or ask to be hit again. What I do has nothing to do with being slapped. It has 100% to do with what I chose to do after the fact. Hamas has nothing to do with Israel and 100% to do with the creators.

2- Should the Palestinians, both in Gaza and the West Bank, have been treated differently, not invaded by settlers (not just a West Bank issue, but an insult to all Palestinians),

Again, I am responsible for my actions. What I do and do not do is entirely my choice as it is of every Palestinian.

Invasion by settlers is an interesting concept. It’s difficult to determine who the land belong to. Were the Jews not always in the region? Did the Jews not stay in in the region even after the Roman Empire destroyed most of Judaea and Renamed it Syria Palaestina to try to completely destroy the Jews?

When do we start counting? Did Islam precede Judaism?

3- not left to grinding poverty behind walls, granted a homeland to call their own (coupled with decades of investment, development and economic ties financed by the Israeli government and businesses, money and prosperity being the greatest propaganda weapon to win hearts and minds) by which the poverty and despair which nurtures Hamas could have been rechanneled in other directions through the years?

I am responsible for my well-being, not you.

I can choose to support Hamas regardless of how rich or poor I am, regardless of how much pleasure or suffering I experience.

4- Is that not, in fact, what needs to be done even now? Was there not tolerance and encouragement of Hamas by the Israeli government for years, hoping to pit them against the Palestinian Authority to weaken by dividing?

I control my opinions and my actions, not the Israeli Government or Hamas. Hamas controls its opinions and actions. The Israeli Government controls its opinions and actions. Nobody pits anyone against anyone. People are in charge of their opinions and actions.

5- By repeating the behavior of "invade, destroy, leave" of the past, is not Israel merely setting itself up for Hamas 3.0, more hate, placing a lid on the pressure cooker, inviting a repeat of these events (or worse) in the years to come?

I am responsible for my opinions and actions. I choose to hate or not hate. Hamas chooses to hate or not hate. Israel has nothing to the with what Hamas feels.

6- Furthermore, as many steps as Israel is taking to reduce civilian casualties, could it do more?

I think it could do more. For example:

I would turn the other cheek and let Hamas accomplish its stated purpose of killing every Jew, me included, and the problem would be solved.

7- Why bomb from the first day before refugees had a chance to leave the north?

Which bomb? The ones that fall without warning in Israel or the ones that receive from minutes to weeks of advance warning in Gaza?

8- Why prevent humanitarian aid of food, water and medicine?

I am responsible for my actions. I decide if I want aid or not. When I want aid, I act accordingly. When I don’t want aid, I act accordingly.

9- Why reduce hospitals to barbaric conditions?

A hospital is a place to treat the ill, nothing more.

A barbaric condition is where Hamas uses hospitals as military outposts.

In war, military outposts are the target.

7- Could women and children have been evacuated to internationally run refugee camps in the Negev (it would not have saved everyone, but it might have saved thousands of lives: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blog...QssYkPa7Rxog)?

They could.

8- Could more finely targeted weapons be used, rather than bombs which take out entire neighborhoods to kill a single man? (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/04/u...5j0h1PumsGCDTA)

Yes.

9- These are questions of international law and proportionality which I am not prepared or competent to answer.

True.

10- Still, I am left with the feeling that so much more could have been done.

We all feel this.

11- Should Israel, even now, announce that there will be a Palestinian homeland, that the land shall be rebuilt, made prosperous, on condition that there be a non-violent government in the future?

No. History is the best teacher as it predicts the future.

12 - Or, is the plan to return to the status quo which helped create this disaster? Is not Israel, now, being drawn into the very trap of destroying the peace process which Hamas desired? (https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...qPN92YvQQYVIfw)

My best guess is that the people in Gaza have documented that they are incapable of governing themselves. After Hamas is eliminated, Israel will govern Gaza indefinitely.

13- Finally, as a Buddhist, I must simply care for the children, other innocent civilians, of both sides. What is the best way? It is not a matter of "who is right, who is wrong," for the killing of children is always wrong. Could that wrong have been reduced? Was all done that could be done?

Hard to say.

14- Was there a way to hit Hamas hard without doing all the damage to innocent lives that has resulted?

Yes. It is being done now. Hamas is being targeted with the upmost respect for human life.

15- These are my concerns.

They are everyone’s.

Jishin, ST

[Jundo]

[Dojin]

Jundo, let me start that i always look forward to hear/read your thoughts. They are often giving me another perspective i have not been able to see before.
It could never be wrong to care about death and destruction that is brought upon a civilian population and especially children who are mostly young and innocent. No matter how justifiable the military operation is and how unavoidable. I totally support Israel's response. And think that as horrible as it may sound it is justifiable and willing to mourn but accept the loss of civilian life in order to root out hamas.
Although i believe that it is not really going to work but more on that in a few more sentences.


Having said that. I very can not stress enough on how much i disagree with the current government's policies. Domestically and international.
For over a decade they have slowly corrupted many aspects of life in israel. From doing all they could to bring religious and nationalist content into the school curriculum. And making sure to normalize radicalized thinking of Jewish superiority and religious righteousness. To trying to demolished the Supreme Court to allow themselves freedom to do everything. Appoint convicted politicians to positions of power. Like a minister that was convicted of stealling from public funds, TWICE!!!!
Or have 2 ministers in key positions who are religious radicals that were arrested and charged and i think convicted for terrorism against the state. Were one of them is incharge of the police!!!!
Not to mention these politicians are the biggest proponents of the settlement of arab area, just to stick a finger in the arabs eye. Because they believe god promised them this land. And would make huge amounts of resources be spent to secure those settlements with lose of lives of soldiers just so a few families would be able to live there.
Yes it is tru that the israeli government has done alot to support hamas in order to weaken the Palestinian authority. It is all politics. Having a fear of hamas which they promised time and time again to destroy gives them the ability to weaken the Palestinian authority and have an enemy to use as a tool of fear in their propaganda while proclaiming they are the only ones who could protect israel, not those left wing peace loving other guys.... just them!

But as to why in the long run it won't work.
No arab counrty is willing to take Palestinian refugees. No one wants them. They dont want those radicalized people. No European country is willing to take control of the area and police it. And when they tried they didn't bring a large force so alot but i mean aldnot of humanitarian aid was just weapons that were smuggled in.

Israel can not control this area and rebuild it alone with 1.7 million Palestinians living there. And always shot at and attacced by radical terrorism. It would require a long term process that would take decades of occupation and systematic rooting out of dissidents while rebuilding and re-education the population. It would be horrible with many loses on both sides. It would look like exactly like what israel is being accused of. And the international community would never stand for it. And no one would suuport it. Let alone the current government of Israel would want to even try such a thing.



I have alot more i could say on the subject but im on a plane and it is a bumpy ride at the moment. And I hate talking about those things. Makes me.feel like im being all self righteous.

Jundo, you are my friend, my teacher, my brother, and could never lose my friendship or respect.

Thank you for caring.

Gassho, D.

[Jishin]

Interesting article:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/23/al-shifa-hospital-director-arrested-by-israeli-army-in-gaza

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH