the urge to glance / going to different temples

[disastermouse]

Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

I guess I average around the Western Standard Meditation Time of about 20 minutes.

Where did that 20 minutes come from? I remember reading about a time when Shunyri Suzuki said something like, "Why only 20 minutes? The Buddha never said 20 minutes. It doesn't say '20 minutes' in any sutra." (Paraphrasing from memory).

Chet

[Ryumon]

Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

That's a good question. It seems to be the amount of time that's always recommended. Jundo? Any history of this?

Kirk

[Jundo]

Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

Hi,

Traditionally, time for Zazen is measured in a Japanese or Chinese Zen temple by the amount of time it takes one incense stick to burn. This can be anywhere from 30, 40, 50 to 60 minutes, approximately, depending on the length of the stick. However, most Zazen sittings in a Soto Zen Monastery in Japan are 40 to 50 minutes (45 minutes is standard), with 10 minutes for Kinhin. They usually come in blocks of two or three (for example, three successive Zazen sittings, with two 10 minute Kinhin periods sandwiched in between), followed by a break.

I believe it is just the custom, from long experience, that 45 minutes is ideal. Some folks cannot settle down until many minutes into a sitting. Nishijima Roshi recommends that people sit twice per day. In our Saturday and Monthly "Zazenkai" netcast here at Treeleaf, we sit for 40 to 45 minute periods of Zazen.

My recommendation of "25 minutes" at least once per day is on the short side, but recognizes the busy schedules of many people these days. I try to emphasize "quality time" in sitting over "quantity" to compensate, namely, if one makes poor use of the time caught in daydreaming, then sitting for an hour is an hour of daydreaming. Better to sit 25 or 30 minutes with good effort and focus.

I also substitute (like a diet plan! :shock: ) several of Jundo's Patented "Insta-Zazens©" scattered through one's day as equivalent to a "second sitting". I believe that this not only recognizes the realities of most folks busy life, but captures the traditional aspect of Zen practice where "Zazen" was brought off the Zafu into cleaning the temple, washing the floors, working in the monastery kitchen, etc.

For new folks who don't know about Jundo's PATENTED 'INSTA-ZAZEN©' please look here ...

viewtopic.php?p=4029#p4029

and here

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=705&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hil it=insta+zazen

Gassho, Jundo

[Jinho]

Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

Greetings,

Your comment on your thoughts reminded me of the first advice I was given which is to just let thoughts be like clouds, let them float in , let them float out (and don't follow them out )

A note on a non-soto zen place. You may find that the actual practice is totally compatible with soto practice (zazen is done in silence) but the kinhin may be different - perhaps slow then fast or just fast. Anyway, it might be a good support. And a great place to do a one-day or multi-day sesshin (zazen retreat). It is is a great experience. Please note that you should be prepared to switch to a chair or stool during the day (if you are sitting on a zafu) because frequently any position that is perfectly comfy for one or two periods of sitting can suddenly become painful after that. At a retreat, it is good to find out who is Shuso (the person you go to to ask questions). Otherwise you just follow along.

Also, I have found that sitting "along with Jundo", even though he is not there and can't see me, is a tremendous help in keeping my butt on the seat

Otherwise, everybody else's comments are wonderful.

I did invest in a lovely timer which sounds a nice recorded bell soudn at the beginning and end and can be set to various times up to one hour. It is rather expensive but I nice investment, for me, in my practice. There are various ones you can find if you google for "zen timer".

gassho,
rowan
who hopes she is helpful somehow to somebody somewhere.........

[Jinho]

Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

For new folks who don't know about Jundo's PATENTED 'INSTA-ZAZEN©' please look here ...

viewtopic.php?p=4029#p4029

and here

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=705&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hil it=insta+zazen

Gassho, Jundo

And What about Jundo's PATENDED 'INSTA-KINHIN'?! :mrgreen:

gassho,
rowan
who walks a lot .......

[Jundo]

Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

Also, I have found that sitting "along with Jundo", even though he is not there and can't see me ...

Why do you assume that I am not there, you here, and that we can't see each other? :shock:

[murasaki]

Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

I feel so very far away from being able to do 25 minutes of zazen, let alone 45 or 50 :shock: I love the Insta-Zazen, and in fact I did a bit of that the other day (without even knowing it was patented :wink: ), in the car waiting 10 minutes to pick someone up. (No, not just any person. :lol: Long story.)

Rowan: I just found out I have the choice of TWO, count 'em, TWO local non-Soto Zen places to visit :mrgreen: 8) One is unidentified Zen (is there a "just Zen"?) and the other is Rinzai. So I will see what I can manage in the coming weeks. However, both of them are somewhat less convenient than the local Chinese Pure Land and Jodo Shinshu places are, distance- and schedule-wise. I am just going to see what opportunities present themselves to me (as I continue to visit Treeleaf 8) )

Retreats won't really be possible for me for the time being, but the Rinzai zendo conducts them, so it's nice to know that I won't have to travel extremely far in order to try out my first retreat someday.

Speaking of sitting along with Jundo...what is the latest information about the Treeleaf zazen hall? No one is listed on the sitting schedule. I don't know from one day to the next when I'll be able to sit, but if sitting in the Treeleaf hall helps me sit still and stop scritching around and checking the time (i.e. because I feel like I'm being watched), perhaps I ought to try it.

gassho
Julia

[JamesVB]

Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

It's been 10 days since I started learning how to do zazen. I haven't done it every day, and not for very long each time, but I'm plodding along.
...

I must be taking the wrong approach to zazen. I am so distractable and scattered. Trying to overcome a great deal of resentment and anxiety...

Congratulations! In only ten days you are aware of the "I" that is learning, distracted, and scattered. Many people live their entire existence learning, distracted, and scattered without the awareness of who is learning, distracted, or scattered. The awakening to this awareness is worthy of celebration, so be kind to yourself.

[disastermouse]

Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

It's been 10 days since I started learning how to do zazen. I haven't done it every day, and not for very long each time, but I'm plodding along.
...

I must be taking the wrong approach to zazen. I am so distractable and scattered. Trying to overcome a great deal of resentment and anxiety...

Congratulations! In only ten days you are aware of the "I" that is learning, distracted, and scattered. Many people live their entire existence learning, distracted, and scattered without the awareness of who is learning, distracted, or scattered. The awakening to this awareness is worthy of celebration, so be kind to yourself.

It sounds like you're saying that she should say, "Yay! I'm a mess."

And knowing is half the battle....

w00t!

Chet

[will]

Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

It sounds like you're saying that she should say, "Yay! I'm a mess."

LOL

Gassho

[murasaki]

Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

Haha....indeed, yay, I am a big freakin' mess...but guess what: I'm a mess *who sat last night for an entire 30 minutes without looking at any time-measuring device*. First time ever. w00t! 8)

gassho
Julia

[Eika]

Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

I'm a mess *who sat last night for an entire 30 minutes without looking at any time-measuring device*. First time ever. w00t! 8)

gassho
Julia

Super! I'm sincerely glad you pushed through this hurdle (even though it never really existed) . . . on to the next one!!!! . . . and the next, and the next, and the next



Gassho,
Bill

[JamesVB]

Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

It sounds like you're saying that she should say, "Yay! I'm a mess."

And knowing is half the battle....

"Yay"

"Knowing" so that we may let go and let be.

[Dosho]

Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

Speaking of sitting along with Jundo...what is the latest information about the Treeleaf zazen hall? No one is listed on the sitting schedule. I don't know from one day to the next when I'll be able to sit, but if sitting in the Treeleaf hall helps me sit still and stop scritching around and checking the time (i.e. because I feel like I'm being watched), perhaps I ought to try it.

gassho
Julia

When I first came to Treeleaf I sat in the hall but between technical glitches and perhaps laziness (I prefer to call it being too busy) I haven't in quite some time. Jundo has stressed several times that we are always sitting with each other and that there is no here or there, but it is nice to see a face now and again. One idea I've had lately is for folks who have a regular sitting time to post it so we can feel that level of connection even without webcams. However, too much clinging to even that can lead to suffering and if you followed all that you've already come a long way...or not at all.