the urge to glance / going to different temples

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  • murasaki
    Member
    • Mar 2009
    • 473

    the urge to glance / going to different temples

    It's been 10 days since I started learning how to do zazen. I haven't done it every day, and not for very long each time, but I'm plodding along.

    I am trying not to be bitterly disappointed about the local brick-and-mortar zendo closing, but I have to admit that sitting in a real-life zendo situation, with others around you, pushes me to do zazen longer than I would at home on my own, and with seemingly more ability to drop my thoughts. Plus the atmosphere in the zendo is peaceful and healing, with its beautiful altar and bells on their fine cushions. Home, in contrast, is distracting and un-serene to me in so many ways.

    When I sit at home, I am especially bothered by one thing: I cannot resist the urge to look at the timer/clock and see how much time is left. I am not even sitting that long (10 - 20 minutes at a time), but I end up glancing at whatever time-keeping instrument I am using/is visible. I try to put it off, but I end up sneeking a peek once or twice (or more). ops:

    I remember having my watch on during one of the real zendo sittings, and still, I didn't even think of looking.

    I must be taking the wrong approach to zazen. I am so distractable and scattered. Trying to overcome a great deal of resentment and anxiety due to recent events in my life. Anyone have some thoughts on this?

    Another thing, about my disappointment of the closed Soto Zendo: there are other temples in my area, representing other Buddhist schools (Jodo shinshu, Chinese pure land, non-Soto Zen, and a handful of Tibetan places). Some are less convenient than others in terms of schedule and location. Would it be beneficial for me to attend different ones, even if I don't feel a connection with/interest in/agreement with their teachings? But meditation in any real-life group might trump the disadvantages.

    Ironically, it seems to me that the more interest I have in the teachings, the further away the temple is...or the less convenient their sitting times are :roll:

    Gassho,
    Julia
    "The Girl Dragon Demon", the random Buddhist name generator calls me....you have been warned.

    Feed your good wolf.
  • disastermouse

    #2
    Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

    Originally posted by murasaki
    It's been 10 days since I started learning how to do zazen. I haven't done it every day, and not for very long each time, but I'm plodding along.

    I am trying not to be bitterly disappointed about the local brick-and-mortar zendo closing, but I have to admit that sitting in a real-life zendo situation, with others around you, pushes me to do zazen longer than I would at home on my own, and with seemingly more ability to drop my thoughts. Plus the atmosphere in the zendo is peaceful and healing, with its beautiful altar and bells on their fine cushions. Home, in contrast, is distracting and un-serene to me in so many ways.

    When I sit at home, I am especially bothered by one thing: I cannot resist the urge to look at the timer/clock and see how much time is left. I am not even sitting that long (10 - 20 minutes at a time), but I end up glancing at whatever time-keeping instrument I am using/is visible. I try to put it off, but I end up sneeking a peek once or twice (or more). ops:

    I remember having my watch on during one of the real zendo sittings, and still, I didn't even think of looking.
    I don't see a problem.

    I must be taking the wrong approach to zazen. I am so distractable and scattered. Trying to overcome a great deal of resentment and anxiety due to recent events in my life. Anyone have some thoughts on this?
    This is called 'zazen'. Sometimes it's easier, sometimes it's not. It will be much less frustrating if, instead of judging your current state of mind as somehow insufficient and trying to pursue another state of mind, you simply look at and make friends with your current state of mind - whatever it is.

    Another thing, about my disappointment of the closed Soto Zendo: there are other temples in my area, representing other Buddhist schools (Jodo shinshu, Chinese pure land, non-Soto Zen, and a handful of Tibetan places). Some are less convenient than others in terms of schedule and location. Would it be beneficial for me to attend different ones, even if I don't feel a connection with/interest in/agreement with their teachings? But meditation in any real-life group might trump the disadvantages.
    There will be some very radical differences. Also, on the path of Zen, sometimes you sit with other people, sometimes you sit alone. It looks as though you might have to develop some strength with sitting alone. I sat by myself nearly the entire first four years I ever sat zazen - and even now, I sit alone far more often than I sit with a group.


    Chet

    Comment

    • Mountaintop Rebel
      Member
      • Dec 2008
      • 29

      #3
      Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

      Hey Julia
      As a fellow zonie with similar problems, I feel your pain. I think I know where you live based on the description of who's around; the non-Soto Zen group, if it is who I think it is, are solid people. I sat with them a bit like 3-5 years ago. Similarly, I'd avoid most Tibetan groups in the state and their weird lineage drama and politics. The Hsu-Yun zen/pure land people are okay too.

      I also am more disciplined when I sit with a group. I get scattered too. And I've been doing it a while. I don't think it means you're doing anything wrong; some of us just have hard minds/bodies to tame.
      "Some motherf*ckers are always tryin' to ice skate uphill."
      Wesley Snipes

      Comment

      • Ryumon
        Member
        • Apr 2007
        • 1791

        #4
        Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

        Ten days; no big deal. Glance all you like. You'll grow out of it.

        Kirk
        I know nothing.

        Comment

        • Tobiishi
          Member
          • Jan 2009
          • 461

          #5
          Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

          I bought a $5 alarm clock which I set for 20 minutes from whenever I start, and then put it behind me. I don't face any clocks. Still, sometimes I chicken out, though I've noticed I'm getting closer to 20 minutes when I do...

          I sat for probably 6 weeks before I noticed a "measurable" difference in the noisiness and distraction of my own mind. It does get better, and easier. Stick with it!

          Gassho,
          Tobiah
          It occurs to me that my attachment to this body is entirely arbitrary. All the evidence is subjective.

          Comment

          • Eika
            Member
            • Sep 2007
            • 806

            #6
            Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

            All of the comments above are good ones.

            My little bits of advice:

            --Don't look at the timer, but if you do, don't worry about it. Kirk's right, eventually you'll get tired of checking on the time.

            --See if any of the people who were attending the local Soto zendo are self-organizing after the closing. There may be a few folks who are sitting together despite the closing (surely some of them are continuing Soto-style practice).

            --Chet's right about regrets/worrying/issues. Let them do what they will while you are sitting. Neither encourage/follow those thoughts nor supress/agonize over them. Let them come and go, like clouds, winds, breath, etc. When you stop struggling, there will be no struggle.

            --Keep it up. Take it one day, one sitting at a time, but simultaneously be aware that like running or piano lessons you will have to make a steady and long-term commitment to realize that there is nothing to realize.

            Happy sitting and gassho,
            Bill
            [size=150:m8cet5u6]??[/size:m8cet5u6] We are involved in a life that passes understanding and our highest business is our daily life---John Cage

            Comment

            • murasaki
              Member
              • Mar 2009
              • 473

              #7
              Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

              Wow, good points from everyone, thank you.

              Chet -- After reading your comment, I suspect developing "sit-alone strength" could be better for me than group-sit satisfaction.

              Rebel -- greetings, fellow zonie. I got the same feeling about the Tibetan places. I didn't realize the non-Soto Zen group had been sitting that long, I will try to attend a sitting soon. I would also like to see the Jodo Shinshu temple at least once simply because it's got local historical significance. (From what I understand, Jodo Shinshu is a Japanese version of Pure Land.) The Chinese Pure Land place is actually the most convenient to my current situation. I am interested in knowing more about Thai/Theravada as well, but that temple is *way* far away. And I am most seriously interested in Soto anyway.

              Kirk -- Hope so! I am rather new, aren't I.

              Tobiah -- wow, six weeks. I'll keep working on--, er, doing nothing about it :wink:

              Bill -- besides myself, there was just the sensei and one other person attending when I went. (There are more people in another branch that remains open, but that's far away.) I only attended two sittings, so I never really got to know anyone well. The sensei has my information, and is supposed to contact me about future groups. But it's not "certain" a new place will be found in the near future. My interest in Soto Zen seemed to come up at a really bad time. But...here it is.

              Thanks everyone
              gassho
              Julia
              "The Girl Dragon Demon", the random Buddhist name generator calls me....you have been warned.

              Feed your good wolf.

              Comment

              • AlanLa
                Member
                • Mar 2008
                • 1405

                #8
                Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

                These days I put the timer on in one room, do kinhin for five minutes into another room, then sit there until the zazen timer goes off. I have an enso timer that I can set up this way, and it works like a charm. You might try it with two alarms, or you could just set it and leave the room to sit.
                AL (Jigen) in:
                Faith/Trust
                Courage/Love
                Awareness/Action!

                I sat today

                Comment

                • will
                  Member
                  • Jun 2007
                  • 2331

                  #9
                  Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

                  I'll answer the first couple questions:

                  I am not even sitting that long (10 - 20 minutes at a time), but I end up glancing at whatever time-keeping instrument I am using/is visible. I try to put it off, but I end up sneeking a peek once or twice (or more).
                  If you are doing Zazen by yourself and don't have a gong, how are you going to know what time it is? You have to look at the clock. The thing that you should be noticing is the urge to look at the clock (which I think you are noticing already). btw there is also the Treeleaf gong.

                  I remember having my watch on during one of the real zendo sittings, and still, I didn't even think of looking.
                  Usually when your sitting at a Zendo some one else is timing the sitting, and you might put a little more effort into staying still.

                  I must be taking the wrong approach to zazen. I am so distractable and scattered. Trying to overcome a great deal of resentment and anxiety due to recent events in my life. Anyone have some thoughts on this?
                  Our Zazen is sometimes distracted and scattered. It's sometimes full of torpor or other things. We just sit with that and over time it balances out. There's absolutely nothing wrong with your Zen practice.

                  Gassho

                  Will
                  [size=85:z6oilzbt]
                  To save all sentient beings, though beings are numberless.
                  To penetrate reality, though reality is boundless.
                  To transform all delusion, though delusions are immeasurable.
                  To attain the enlightened way, a way non-attainable.
                  [/size:z6oilzbt]

                  Comment

                  • disastermouse

                    #10
                    Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

                    Originally posted by will

                    Our Zazen is sometimes distracted and scattered. It's sometimes full of torpor or other things. We just sit with that and over time it balances out. There's absolutely nothing wrong with your Zen practice.

                    Gassho

                    Will


                    Chet

                    Comment

                    • Kevin
                      Member
                      • Oct 2007
                      • 113

                      #11
                      Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

                      You can find downloadable mp3 meditation timers at http://www.treeleaf.org. Click on the "Go" button near the image for interactive meditation timers, then find the green square in the bottom left of the next page that says "iPod Zen timer". I use these timers on an iPod hooked up to some speakers, and it works well for me.

                      As far as the descriptions you gave of your experiences, it sounds very familiar. I'm no guru, but I've been sitting for a little while (off and on for years). I remember being obsessed with time. In fact, during a sitting today I was thinking about the timer. It's just one of those thoughts that tends to come up, especially when you're self timing, as Will pointed out. No worries. Notice, release, and back to ZZ' (see link here http://www.treeleaf.org/forum/viewto...&t=1451#p20645 for that reference).

                      Gassho,

                      Kevin

                      Comment

                      • will
                        Member
                        • Jun 2007
                        • 2331

                        #12
                        Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

                        I'll also mention the posture (which you've probably heard a hundred times). It should be neither to stressed nor too relaxed and slumped, but if you find yourself worrying about that, then just forget about it and sit.

                        Gasshooo
                        [size=85:z6oilzbt]
                        To save all sentient beings, though beings are numberless.
                        To penetrate reality, though reality is boundless.
                        To transform all delusion, though delusions are immeasurable.
                        To attain the enlightened way, a way non-attainable.
                        [/size:z6oilzbt]

                        Comment

                        • Jundo
                          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                          • Apr 2006
                          • 40304

                          #13
                          Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

                          Originally posted by Eika
                          All of the comments above are good ones.

                          My little bits of advice:

                          --Don't look at the timer, but if you do, don't worry about it. Kirk's right, eventually you'll get tired of checking on the time.

                          --See if any of the people who were attending the local Soto zendo are self-organizing after the closing. There may be a few folks who are sitting together despite the closing (surely some of them are continuing Soto-style practice).

                          --Chet's right about regrets/worrying/issues. Let them do what they will while you are sitting. Neither encourage/follow those thoughts nor supress/agonize over them. Let them come and go, like clouds, winds, breath, etc. When you stop struggling, there will be no struggle.

                          --Keep it up. Take it one day, one sitting at a time, but simultaneously be aware that like running or piano lessons you will have to make a steady and long-term commitment to realize that there is nothing to realize.

                          Happy sitting and gassho,
                          Bill
                          Hi,

                          Some very good comments, but I am going to single out Bill's advice above (just to save me lots of typing).

                          It is really not a good idea to get in the habit of looking at the timer. In most Zendo, you do not even bring in a wristwatch (remember that if ever visiting a Zen hall). However, it is okay to look a bit now, but try not to make it a habit.

                          Shikantaza Zazen, which is what I am teaching here, is different (the same, but different) from other paths of meditation. As a beginner, it is fine to find out about the different schools and ways of meditation that are available, but soon you have to pick one (either Judo or Karate or Tennis, not all at once. Focus on the violin or the piano or the guitar, but not all at once).

                          And you need to stick with it for awhile before you see the fruit on the tree. Do not judge after just ten days. If you do not see some fruit even within a few weeks (and certainly within a few months), I will eat my Zen teacher hat. As Bill said, who is a piano teacher, it is something like piano lessons in that way. Be consistent, practice each day ... something will happen.

                          Of course, what you think should happen may not be what you expect to happen ... you will have to make a steady and long-term commitment to realize that there is nothing to realize or change about this life (which is a TREMENDOUS realization that will radically change your life, top to bottom). Please make a point of watching my "Zazen for Beginners" series of talks, which may clear up some misconceptions (and conceptions).

                          viewtopic.php?f=1&t=447


                          As several folks have said in different ways, in our "Just Sitting" practice it is very important that you taste that there are no "bad days" of Zazen, even the "bad days" of Zazen, and we keep on keeping on. As Will said, "There's absolutely nothing wrong with your Zen practice." That's especially true after just a few weeks of trying.

                          Gassho, Jundo
                          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                          Comment

                          • Ryumon
                            Member
                            • Apr 2007
                            • 1791

                            #14
                            Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

                            Just another point about time. There was a time when I was obsessed by time, using a watch or clock (that didn't tick). After a while, I realized that I shouldn't force myself to worry about time. Now, when I sit, I may check the time before and after (slight obsession, but more just to know how much time I sat), but I just sit until I feel I don't want to sit any more. On most days, this ranges from a minimum of about 15 minutes (when I'm really perturbed, and can't settle down) to around a half hour. I guess I average around the Western Standard Meditation Time of about 20 minutes. I feel that if I just sit until I'm finished, I am more satisfied after sitting (even though I don't sit to be satisfied). Sometimes, when I did use a timer, it would stop me when I was sitting "well" and well absorbed, and really didn't want to stop (like when you're in a nice dream and don't want to get out of bed).

                            Kirk
                            I know nothing.

                            Comment

                            • murasaki
                              Member
                              • Mar 2009
                              • 473

                              #15
                              Re: the urge to glance / going to different temples

                              Alan: I like the idea of kinhin to another room (i.e. away from the timer). I feel less distracted/distractable during kinhin than in zazen, actually.

                              Will: My original post arose from a particularly torpor-filled sitting. Until then, mostly harmless thoughts have come up during my zazen ("should I make rice balls today, or pizza?" "I forgot to return that phone call") that are easily dropped even when they're numerous. But yesterday, big fears and memories of painful moments kept popping up, and that was the first time I had so much wall-to-wall negativity jumping out at me in one sitting. It threw me off. Thank you for your reassurance that it balances out.

                              Kevin: I hope my post isn't what made you think about your timer Thank you for the reference -- it clarified the issue for me. I have the iPod timers, but I glance at the mp3 player's clock too. I glance at anything marking time...soon I'll be measuring shadows during zazen :roll:

                              Jundo: Just today, I saw your "blender talk" - that hit the nail on the head perfectly! Now I'm starting to understand. I had considered my sitting of yesterday morning (which prompted my original post) a very "bad zazen day". I will let go of judgments and evaluations of my zazen sittings from now on...kind of a liberating thought, since I seem to be constantly evaluating things I do. In fact, these evaluations make up a great deal of the blender noise in my head...

                              Kirk: I think I use a timer because I am afraid that I won't sit "long enough" if I just allow myself to stop when I feel finished. Now I want to try your way. I won't get much time out of it (5-10 minutes maybe), but I'd rather be "satisfied" with little time than feel strained.

                              Many thanks and gassho,
                              Julia
                              "The Girl Dragon Demon", the random Buddhist name generator calls me....you have been warned.

                              Feed your good wolf.

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