Zen Master ... Bation ...

[Jundo]

Dear All (offspring of sex) ...

I just addressed a question elsewhere by a lay person (pun intended) who felt some friction (pun intended) about dating and having sex, masturbating and watching porno some, as well as a few "one night stands." They had taken some lay precepts, including our Precept on "not misusing sexuality." They seem seriously concerned about being reborn in a "lower realm" at death because of all this lust, despite (in their words) being otherwise pretty decent in life. I answered this, and wonder if folks would have other positions (pun intended) on this question, or if it rubs some the wrong way (pun intended) ...

~~~~

Hi. You are a lay person, not a monk (and even so, in the Japanese tradition, Japanese clergy date, masterbate, marry. Even Zen masters can masterbate. ) You did not take vows of chastity. Even the monks vow is "not to misuse sexuality and all desire," not to avoid all desire.

As to porno and short sexual relationships, I would simply advise (1) don't be addicted to sex and porno, the same way as one should not be addicted to food or drink, i.e., all things in moderation, and (2) avoid the ugly stuff where people hurt or get hurt. (3) You should avoid sex at certain times in practice, such as when in an actual monastery or retreat. Please do not have sex during Sesshin! Also, honor committed relationships, honesty and avoid cheating. Keep relationships consensual, even short ones, where everyone is left feeling that it was a positive experience, not something sordid.

If one does wish to be celibate for a time as their lifestyle choice, that is fine too, and a powerful practice. However, just don't think that it is required of lay folks, or even monks in the Japanese traditions.

Have fun! (In moderation!) We can have desires ... in moderation, and without being overly clinging, caught and attached to desires. If you only thought about sex, and chased it all the time, there would be a problem. Once in awhile, following your natural urges as a lay person, is not a problem. If there was no sex, and everyone was celibate, then Buddhism would have died out in its first generation (think about that!)

I personally don't have an opinion on literal rebirth, and I am quite skeptical about it. But it seems that all your feelings of guilt will definitely put you in a kind of hell of desire in this life today.

Gassho, J
stlah

PS - Reminds me of this joke I heard this week elsewhere from our Kotei ...

A new monk arrives at the monastery.
He is assigned to help the other monks in copying the old texts by hand.
He notices, however, that they are copying copies, and not the original books.

So, the new monk goes to the head monk to ask him about this.
He points out that if there was an error in the first copy, that error would be continued in all of the other copies.
The head monk says, "We have been copying from the copies for centuries, but you make a good point, my son."

So, he goes down into the cellar with one of the copies to check it against the original.
Hours later, nobody has seen him. So, one of the monks goes downstairs to look for him.
He hears sobbing coming from the back of the cellar and finds the old monk leaning over one of the original books crying.
"Celebrate", "the word was Celebrate!"

[Seiko]

I answered this, and wonder if folks would have other positions (pun intended) on this question, or if it rubs some the wrong way (pun intended)

Hello,

If we are talking about guilt, I think guilt is a redundant emotion. In my own life, I feel that to acknowledge a mistake, to atone, and vow to do better in the future is a much more positive course of action than to dwell in guilt - whatever the negative word/thought/deed is.

How we define sexual misconduct may well mean different things to different people. The first precept is to avoid causing harm.

At my age, in my health, I feel the sexual desire and urges naturally diminish. I have two kids (now in their 30s) - so I must have been a "young buck" at some time, but I am content with life as it is today.

As for jokes - Did you know that owls can't breed in the rain? It's too wet to woo.

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

[Shonin Risa Bear]

LLL V.2

When icicles hang by the wall
And Dick the shepherd blows his nail
And Tom bears logs into the hall
And milk comes frozen home in pail,
When blood is nipp'd and ways be foul,
Then nightly sings the staring owl,
Tu-whit;
Tu-who, a merry note,
While greasy Joan doth keel the pot.

When all aloud the wind doth blow
And coughing drowns the parson's saw
And birds sit brooding in the snow
And Marian's nose looks red and raw,
When roasted crabs hiss in the bowl,
Then nightly sings the staring owl,
Tu-whit;
Tu-who, a merry note,
While greasy Joan doth keel the pot.



ds sat today and oh maybe a little lah

[Nengei]

About 15 years ago I found a little store off North Halstead (Boystown) by a block, stockists of every conceivable item created to assist in masturbation. Things I had never seen or ever knew existed. It was... enlightening. The staff was an exuberant young man who was unabashedly able to describe the use of every item. He said that no one who ever came in left very quickly, and no one ever left without buying something. For a friend.

I don't know if that shop is still there, but I hope so and I do think every town needs one.

Sexuality can be a great tool for enjoyment, and should be enjoyable for everyone. But it can also be a powerful weapon of misuse, abuse, and domination. I doubt there has been any generation unable to see that. Perhaps the ancestors saw this, and wanted to provide clear and direct assistance to spiritual path-walkers for avoiding doing harm through the misuse of sexuality. Or, maybe they wanted a tangible way to control people by ensuring that something they wanted to do made them feel terrible about themselves, so that they crawled in despair believing they were horrible people. For, y'know, being people.

The old, Brahmanically derived traditions of Indian Buddhism describe the realm of desire, including our "level" and those upward to the gods, with much talk about sexuality, including details of how it is experienced by beings who are higher on the scale than we are (as well as by us). Sex makes a good metaphor, because (almost) everyone wants it really badly (not everyone, though) and (almost) everyone understand how it draws your attention away from other things. Historically, religious leaders of every vein have refined their ability to display themselves as aloof from sex, as well as their ability to control others by saying things like "I know you are doing this," or "I know you are looking at them," or "I know what you think about when you see that person." Oh my dog, how could they know that?! Well, duh, because 99 out of 100 people are thinking about those things or doing those things, and the one not doing those things isn't not doing them because they are somehow holy. If the original writers of any rules of sexuality we have were intending to limit positive sexual interaction, I prefer to think that they entirely meant for us to not use sex as a weapon (protection of others), or to not get sexually involved in situations that might become intolerably awkward (protection of self).

I live in a country where the dread of anyone thinking we have sexuality is so strongly ingrained that it is one of the two dominating features of our political tactics. It is religiously based, it's getting worse, and it's the most absurd thing in the world, after a platypus. Zen Buddhism must not become a part of that.


Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

[Shujin]

Interesting thread; I feel that society doesn't talk about sexuality in the context of relationships much. Esther Perel has written a whole body of work on the topic, and I agree with much of her ideas. One challenge is that pornography has become increasingly violent and exploitative in recent years. It also allows us to sidestep intimacy.

There's a bizarre dichotomy in America between overreacting about someone's gender or orientation while kids go further down the rabbit hole of pornography. I've seen this growing worse over the last five years as a middle school teacher, and it's alarming.

Gassho,
Shujin

-sat today-


Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[Seiko]

When icicles hang by the wall
And Dick the shepherd blows his nail
And Tom bears logs into the hall
And milk comes frozen home in pail,
When blood is nipp'd and ways be foul,
Then nightly sings the staring owl,
Tu-whit;
Tu-who, a merry note,
While greasy Joan doth keel the pot.

When all aloud the wind doth blow
And coughing drowns the parson's saw
And birds sit brooding in the snow
And Marian's nose looks red and raw,
When roasted crabs hiss in the bowl,
Then nightly sings the staring owl,
Tu-whit;
Tu-who, a merry note,
While greasy Joan doth keel the pot.

Poor old lonely owl.

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah