State between dreaming and waking

[Jundo]

... Dōgen: that the waking world is as UNREAL as the dream world.

Oh, the waking world is unreal ... thus as real as real can be.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

PS - Would you consider to sign a human first name to your posts, and also to put a human face photo? It helps us keep things more human around here. Thank you.

Also, sometime soon, do start to sign "sat today" to your posts. Thank you too. You can read about that here. It is not a dream.

SatToday - Make sure you have SAT before joining in forum CHAT!

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12995-SatToday-Make-sure-you-have-SAT-before-joining-in-forum-CHAT%21

[Ryumon]

Actually these kind of experiences happens upon waking without alarm, I recently wake up without the alarm, sometimes few minutes before it of 2 hours before. I could agree with your argument, but for lately hasn't been the case.

Thank you

Gassho

They don’t only happen when you are awakened an alarm, but it is much more common.

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

[Kaitan]

Oh, the waking world is unreal ... thus as real as real can be.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

PS - Would you consider to sign a human first name to your posts, and also to put a human face photo? It helps us keep things more human around here. Thank you.

Also, sometime soon, do start to sign "sat today" to your posts. Thank you too. You can read about that here. It is not a dream.

SatToday - Make sure you have SAT before joining in forum CHAT!
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-forum-CHAT%21

Alright! I like the idea of sat today as a sort of soft check in . New profile picture

The username I'm not sure if I can change it, though it does not differ too much from my real name

Thanks again, Jundo!

Gassho

SatToday

Bernal

[Jundo]

Alright! I like the idea of sat today as a sort of soft check in . New profile picture

The username I'm not sure if I can change it, though it does not differ too much from my real name

Thanks again, Jundo!

Gassho

SatToday

Bernal

Hi Bernal,

No need to change your username. But, for some strange reasons, the software designers made the avatar and profile pictures separate. I meant the avatar picture here. Thank you. Here are instructions.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12837-Often-Asked-How-to-Add-an-Avatar-Photo

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Kaitan]

Hi Bernal,

No need to change your username. But, for some strange reasons, the software designers made the avatar and profile pictures separate. I meant the avatar picture here. Thank you. Here are instructions.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12837-Often-Asked-How-to-Add-an-Avatar-Photo

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

Done!

Gassho, Bernal

SatToday

[Seiko]

Hi Bernal,

Please excuse this long message.

Well, my memory is not perfect, that includes my memory of dreams. Sometimes it may not be important whether an event is a dream or a part of waking life.

On the other hand... I recently dreamt that my wife had bought some ugly wall lights for our lounge, then when I told her about the dream, and described the light fittings, she told me that it was not a dream at all, but a conversation we'd had a few days earlier - about some lovely wall lights she had chosen. Aarrgh! So, to avoid such trouble in the future, I will try harder to file my memories of life in a different brain drawer from my memories of dreams.

Oddly, I have never dreamed that I am dreaming - equally I have never dreamed that I am doing zazen. My dreams are usually impossible things such as dreaming that I am flying, with my feet a few inches above ground. Perhaps dreams are just the brain telling itself stories - for entertainment, like the Disney Channel? I don't know. For me, it doesn't feel like an urgent matter to investigate.

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

[Jundo]

Done!

Gassho, Bernal

SatToday

Dreamy!

Thank you, Bernal.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Jishin]

You appear to be in hypnopompic states, which are transitional phases between dreaming and waking. Zazen practice may increase your awareness of these experiences and your dreams in general.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Jundo]

You appear to be in hypnopompic states, which are transitional phases between dreaming and waking. Zazen practice may increase your awareness of these experiences and your dreams in general.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

Jishin, who actually went to some takes years, get a diploma "skool" to study these things, uses all them fancy words ...

Thank you. Some of us don't know our hypnopompic from our hypnagogic ... not to sound "hyper-pompous."

Hypnopompic hallucinations are hallucinations that occur in the morning as you’re waking up

They are very similar to hypnagogic hallucinations, or hallucinations that occur at night as you’re falling asleep. When you experience these hallucinations, you see, hear, or feel things that aren’t actually there. Sometimes these hallucinations occur alone, and other times they occur in conjunction with sleep paralysis.

For most people, hypnopompic hallucinations are considered normal and are not cause for concern. They generally don’t indicate an underlying mental or physical illness, though they may be more common in people with certain sleep disorders. Learn more about what hypnopompic hallucinations are, how they differ from other types of hallucinations, and what you should do if you experience them.

https://www.sleepfoundation.org/how-...hallucinations

Gassho, J

stlah

[Jishin]

[emoji3]

[Kaitan]

Jishin, who actually went to some takes years, get a diploma "skool" to study these things, uses all them fancy words ...

Thank you. Some of us don't know our hypnopompic from our hypnagogic ... not to sound "hyper-pompous."



Gassho, J

stlah

Yeah, definitely hypnopompic hallucinations. They have been tactile, visual and had sounds. I don't know if they're are reminder that this is a dream. I recall a morning without hallucinations, but the texture, quality was very dreamlike. Any ways, if there is one place to talk about this matters it's here

Gassho

Sat Today

Bernal

[Kaitan]

You appear to be in hypnopompic states, which are transitional phases between dreaming and waking. Zazen practice may increase your awareness of these experiences and your dreams in general.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

As I mentioned to Jundo: this describes perfectly how I felt.

Thank you very much for the response

Gassho

Sat Today

Bernal

[Guest]

I can understand this phenomena because it has happened to me when I really started sitting pretty regularly. I just learned to make it part of the larger fabric of my Zen practice. Never paid much mind to it. I will say that there are times during zazen where it can feel like sleep in the sense that the brain waves really slow down, the body is relaxed and the breathing is very slow, deep and long, just like sleep. The funny thing is that during this, I am very awake, but not in the usual way which would mean thinking about all kinds of stuff. When what I mention happens, I am just sitting there with very little going on, a fully awake experience, but the body and mind kind of feel like they are asleep because they really have not much to do in that moment other than be there.

Gassho,
Daiman
St

[Jundo]

Speaking of dreams in Zen, however, I did mention Keizan and Dogen. Any history wonks who wish to delve into this ...

Many of the old Zen guys were big dreamers, waking or sleeping. Keizan was a renowned dreamer ... both waking and sleeping ... which he often interpreted as messages from the Buddha world. From page 114 here ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=rbrtd0-WTwsC&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=keizan+dreams+waking&source=bl&ots=RIv61N_GFd&sig=ACfU3U1Kn3iHzkhpPf2QLSOQPA1o3hphYA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjviY7c0_7qAhXadd4KHZP5BxYQ6AEwFXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=keizan%20dreams%20waking&f=false

Dogen was of the view that all of life is just "a dream within a dream" ... but was not quite so big into dreams themselves. This is from a scholar's article:

Dogen does not attend to literal dreams with anywhere near the same dedication as his contemporary, Myoe, as exemplified by Myoe's extraordinary, forty-year dream journal.[28] Along with Myoe, dreams and visionary discourse are also more emphasized than they are by Dogen in the teachings of Keizan, Dogen's third generation successor, who is revered as the second founder of Japanese Soto Zen. The central role of dream and vision for Keizan has been discussed and elaborated by Bernard Faure in Visions of Power.[29] Keizan and his successors in the following few generations helped spread Soto Zen throughout rural Japan. One stereotype in Soto studies is the distinction between Keizan's use of the visionary, inspired by Esoteric teachings, and the supposedly more "pure" Zen of Dogen. According to this stereotype, Dogen emphasized zazen and a rational presentation of buddha dharma, untainted by the more colorful and melodramatic Mahayana and Esoteric teachings indulged in by Keizan.[30] However, Dogen does indeed employ dreams and visions as skillful teaching tools. While we may certainly note differences in emphasis and style between Dogen and Keizan, Dogen is in fundamental accord with the world-view of medieval Japan, including the esoteric teachings of Shingon and Tendai that were the background for all Kamakura Buddhism. Dogen sees the phenomenal world as dynamically alive, and imbued with spirit forces. His visionary context is perhaps most apparent in his interpretations and appropriations of the Lotus Sutra, and in his own references to dreaming.

In Muchu Setsumu "Within a Dream Expressing the Dream," Dogen explicitly refers to the Lotus Sutra as a source for the role of dreams in his discourse style. He quotes a long passage that concludes the final verse in chapter fourteen of the sutra, beginning from, "All buddhas, with bodies of golden hue, splendidly adorned with a hundred auspicious marks, hear the dharma and expound it for others. Such is the fine dream that ever occurs. . . ."

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/..._a_Source.html

https://youtu.be/SSgFPkY1mUU

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH / Sorry to run long ...

[Kaitan]

I can understand this phenomena because it has happened to me when I really started sitting pretty regularly. I just learned to make it part of the larger fabric of my Zen practice. Never paid much mind to it. I will say that there are times during zazen where it can feel like sleep in the sense that the brain waves really slow down, the body is relaxed and the breathing is very slow, deep and long, just like sleep. The funny thing is that during this, I am very awake, but not in the usual way which would mean thinking about all kinds of stuff. When what I mention happens, I am just sitting there with very little going on, a fully awake experience, but the body and mind kind of feel like they are asleep because they really have not much to do in that moment other than be there.

Gassho,
Daiman
St

That's a beautiful way to describe your zazen. Thank you, I'll try not to get caught up by these experiences and come back to the here and now.

Gassho

ST

Bernal