State between dreaming and waking

[Kaitan]

Hi dear Sangha,

I feel the need to vent about these experiences that happen to me every now and upon waking up in the mornings. Is not very often, but when it happens I know something unusual is unfolding. This also relates to the fact that since I started to do zazen (8-9 months ago) I tend to remember my dreams very often. And upon waking up in the morning, lets say the software is still booting So in a way it feels like a lucid dream, though to my understanding lucid dreams are when you know you're dreaming, but here actually I'm in between because I'm exactly where I'm laying down with most of the features of the room it just feels very "glitchy", very dreamlike. I'm not gonna be specific, but you know how different a dream can feel from the "waking world".

So I wonder if anyone has had these kind of experiences, today specially freaked me out a bit, but it didn't bother my for the rest of the day at all. I'm just curious.

Gassho



Bernal

[Kokuu]

Hi Bernal

My guess is that, as with the dreams, that has generally been happening to you but you were just unaware of it. Zazen can increase our base level awareness over time so we can tend to notice things more.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Kaitan]

Hi Bernal

My guess is that, as with the dreams, that has generally been happening to you but you were just unaware of it. Zazen can increase our base level awareness over time so we can tend to notice things more.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Makes sense. I heard from a friend in another Buddhist tradition that practices like zazen don't really add, but rather make you aware of something that was always there.
Thank you for the reply

Gassho

Bernal

[Shinshi]

I too started to become way more attuned to what was going on around me when I started to be more serious about my sitting practice. Noticing things I wouldn't have before.

Then again, it might just be a glitch in the Matrix.

deretan-kode-huruf-hijau-di-film-the-matrix-ternyata-_171029144831-996.jpg

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Tokan]

Hey

Just to add to the other comments. As I work in mental health I encourage people to have healthy sleep habits. So I was watching a documentary about sleep last night that focused on the benefits of meditation before sleep. Over time, the experimental subjects demonstrated 'improved' patterns of sleep, that is, they moved through the normal cycles adequately (gadgets tend to disrupt this), and in so doing improve dream depth and recall (apparently). They did also talk about the factors already commented on. At the end of the day I guess I'd reflect that it is just another experience, not to be grasped or pushed away, and it will rise or fall according to its own nature. Just my thoughts to offer.

Gassho, Tokan

satlah

[Meian]

Hi,

I never associated my lucid dreams or in-between states with zazen. Might just be me. I've had to be very careful in that state, as I am more prone to experience non-epileptic seizures and/or sleep paralysis in the twilight state, and to hear, see, or feel things that I am not usually aware of. First I had to learn not to buy into the experiences as they were, but sometimes there were lessons to be learned from my experiences in-between. I did notice that the seizures, sleep paralysis, and/or experiences were more likely to happen at certain times. The sensory hallucinations, I was told, may be from migraine history and/or multiple TBI's (brain damage).

I haven't experienced the seizures or sleep paralysis for a while, but I still experience the auditory/visual/sensory phenomena sometimes. I've learned to acknowledge what I'm experiencing, but not to buy into the narrative my mind creates from it.

Similar to zazen - the experiences come, the hallucinatory qualities may be there - but I try to just observe them like clouds passing by.

I apologize for many sentences; it was too difficult to explain in a short paragraph. [emoji120][emoji120][emoji120]

Gassho2 stlh

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

I would not put too much importance on these experiences, although they sound interesting. You are just somewhere half between sleep and waking. I try to remember a few moments of my dreams each morning, and often can recall a second or two ... but they usually are not so earth shaking (this morning, I recalled dreaming driving down a closed road in some kind of time pressed or urgent situation. I will leave Freud to interpret the meaning. ) I recently heard a podcast on how to better remember dreams in the morning for those of us for whom they quickly slip away, one of which was don't move and be still when first waking and trying to recall, because moving releases neuro-transmitters that erase the memories, and it seems to work ...

Keizan and some of the old Zen folks were big dreamers, putting all kinds of interpretations and hidden messages from the Buddhas and Ancestors, into their dream communications ... but I tend not to put much stock in that.

However, recall that Dogen and all the Mahayana and other Buddhist teachers remind us that all of life is like a dream, more mind created than we know, in or out of bed. Oh, in this world, I cannot drive down a closed road without risking a traffic ticket. However, it is still more created by the senses, processed and interpreted between the ears, than we usually are aware. That said, Dogen noted that it is a dream ... a dream within a dream ... but it is a real dream, our life dream, so dream it well.



Gassho, Jundo

stlah / Sorry to run long

[Rich]

Some days it takes longer to wake up. I’ll be sitting and dreaming and literally tell myself to wake up. That works for me.

Sat/lah


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[Ryumon]

Dreams occur during REM sleep, and you only remember them if you wake up during that type of sleep. It’s possible that you have more REM sleep since you have started doing zazen. Do you wake up to an alarm? That’s more likely to wake you during REM sleep.

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

[Kaitan]

I too started to become way more attuned to what was going on around me when I started to be more serious about my sitting practice. Noticing things I wouldn't have before.

Then again, it might just be a glitch in the Matrix.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]8341[/ATTACH]

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

Yes, this is only one example of the increase of awareness, which shouldn't be the goal, according to this tradition and I do love that because it keeps us grounded.

Thank you

Gassho

[Kaitan]

Dreams occur during REM sleep, and you only remember them if you wake up during that type of sleep. It’s possible that you have more REM sleep since you have started doing zazen. Do you wake up to an alarm? That’s more likely to wake you during REM sleep.

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

Actually these kind of experiences happens upon waking without alarm, I recently wake up without the alarm, sometimes few minutes before it of 2 hours before. I could agree with your argument, but for lately hasn't been the case.

Thank you

Gassho

[Kaitan]

Some days it takes longer to wake up. I’ll be sitting and dreaming and literally tell myself to wake up. That works for me.

Sat/lah


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's hard to remember that, though I'll keep that in mind!

Thank you

Gassho

[Kaitan]

I would not put too much importance on these experiences, although they sound interesting. You are just somewhere half between sleep and waking. I try to remember a few moments of my dreams each morning, and often can recall a second or two ... but they usually are not so earth shaking (this morning, I recalled dreaming driving down a closed road in some kind of time pressed or urgent situation. I will leave Freud to interpret the meaning. ) I recently heard a podcast on how to better remember dreams in the morning for those of us for whom they quickly slip away, one of which was don't move and be still when first waking and trying to recall, because moving releases neuro-transmitters that erase the memories, and it seems to work ...

Keizan and some of the old Zen folks were big dreamers, putting all kinds of interpretations and hidden messages from the Buddhas and Ancestors, into their dream communications ... but I tend not to put much stock in that.

However, recall that Dogen and all the Mahayana and other Buddhist teachers remind us that all of life is like a dream, more mind created than we know, in or out of bed. Oh, in this world, I cannot drive down a closed road without risking a traffic ticket. However, it is still more created by the senses, processed and interpreted between the ears, than we usually are aware. That said, Dogen noted that it is a dream ... a dream within a dream ... but it is a real dream, our life dream, so dream it well.



Gassho, Jundo

stlah / Sorry to run long

I know I'm giving it too much importance, is just not usual to see dreams so vividly! I agree that more steady I remain, the more the dream can be recalled (at least that's what I remember).
I'm a bit contaminated with Hindu philosophy, and they talk about the dreamlike quality of the world, however they do say the opposite to Dōgen: that the waking world is as UNREAL as the dream world.

Thank you

Gassho

[Kaitan]

Hi,

I never associated my lucid dreams or in-between states with zazen. Might just be me. I've had to be very careful in that state, as I am more prone to experience non-epileptic seizures and/or sleep paralysis in the twilight state, and to hear, see, or feel things that I am not usually aware of. First I had to learn not to buy into the experiences as they were, but sometimes there were lessons to be learned from my experiences in-between. I did notice that the seizures, sleep paralysis, and/or experiences were more likely to happen at certain times. The sensory hallucinations, I was told, may be from migraine history and/or multiple TBI's (brain damage).

I haven't experienced the seizures or sleep paralysis for a while, but I still experience the auditory/visual/sensory phenomena sometimes. I've learned to acknowledge what I'm experiencing, but not to buy into the narrative my mind creates from it.

Similar to zazen - the experiences come, the hallucinatory qualities may be there - but I try to just observe them like clouds passing by.

I apologize for many sentences; it was too difficult to explain in a short paragraph. [emoji120][emoji120][emoji120]

Gassho2 stlh

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Don't worry, I appreciate the response! Certainly buying into the narratives could feed them. I like the analogy of the clouds, almost as of you were talking about zazen .

Gassho

[Kaitan]

Hey

Just to add to the other comments. As I work in mental health I encourage people to have healthy sleep habits. So I was watching a documentary about sleep last night that focused on the benefits of meditation before sleep. Over time, the experimental subjects demonstrated 'improved' patterns of sleep, that is, they moved through the normal cycles adequately (gadgets tend to disrupt this), and in so doing improve dream depth and recall (apparently). They did also talk about the factors already commented on. At the end of the day I guess I'd reflect that it is just another experience, not to be grasped or pushed away, and it will rise or fall according to its own nature. Just my thoughts to offer.

Gassho, Tokan

satlah

Actually these kind of experiences happen upon waking earlier than the alarm. I don't fall asleep immediately, so I started to scroll on the phone, got distracted, etc. Just sleep well, as you said!

Thank you

Gassho