Zazen and doubt

[Jundo]

Re: Zazen and doubt

It reminds me of Lin Chi's 'What at this moment is missing?'

Or the Tenzo's words to Dogen: 'In all the world, nothing is hidden.'

Me too. Good to see you Chet. Gassho, J

Re: Zazen and doubt

It reminds me of Lin Chi's 'What at this moment is missing?'

Or the Tenzo's words to Dogen: 'In all the world, nothing is hidden.'

[Jundo]

Re: Zazen and doubt

But if seeing reality "as it is" wasn't special all of us could do it without practice, without zazen or without Buddhadharma. Perhaps, from a Buddha point of view, that is really ordinary and non-special.

I will once again draw upon the words of the late, great, Kodo Sawaki:

"We don’t achieve satori through practice: practice is satori. Each and every step is the goal. "

Or, to foolishly put things into my own words, seeing reality "as it is" and zazen are the exact same thing.

Yes, coming to see the ordinary and non-special things of life as just jewels of life, both the joys and disappointments ... embracing all the ups and downs of the dream-like roller coaster ride (we are the coaster and the dreaming!) ... --is-- the most special of special ways to be.

We practice with the fact that Zazen ... whether ecstatic and buoyant, whether boring and painful ... is a perfect moment, a perfect doing, -- just as is all of life. All resistance is dropped to all of it, the good and bad. Nothing to achieve, all complete with nothing lacking when we drop our sense of "lack".

That, I believe, --IS-- a "Buddha's point of view".

Gassho, Jundo

Re: Zazen and doubt

But if seeing reality "as it is" wasn't special all of us could do it without practice, without zazen or without Buddhadharma. Perhaps, from a Buddha point of view, that is really ordinary and non-special.

I will once again draw upon the words of the late, great, Kodo Sawaki:

"We don’t achieve satori through practice: practice is satori. Each and every step is the goal. "

Or, to foolishly put things into my own words, seeing reality "as it is" and zazen are the exact same thing.

Re: Zazen and doubt

But if seeing reality "as it is" wasn't special all of us could do it without practice, without zazen or without Buddhadharma. Perhaps, from a Buddha point of view, that is really ordinary and non-special.

[miheco]

Re: Zazen and doubt

Let's face It, we are all here to experience nothing special.

Gassho

[Dojin]

Re: Zazen and doubt

Jundo, i have been facing the room for many years before i started facing the wall about 6 month ago a bit after joining treeleaf. sometimes i still sit facing the room when the situation does not allow for facing the room. to be perfectly honest i don't mind either way, it feels the same.
i just sit sit sit no matter what is going on in front of me (as long as its not dangerous). so i think that it doesn't really matter what you face or where and how you sit but the sitting itself.

Gassho, Dojin.

[Jundo]

Re: Zazen and doubt

Basically, I try not to think about it too much and after a time trying something else will just be the thing to do or it won't.

That make any sense? Hmm...

Very much so. Sometimes resisting is just our mind resisting what the self does not like. Sometimes resisting is because the thing is not good. Resisting not to eat poison is probably a good resistance (and it is wise to listen to your self's call for "self-preservation" in that case).

In the words of someone who understood a lot more than I do:

"Zazen never becomes anything special, no matter how long you practice. If it becomes something special, you must have a screw loose somewhere."
-Kodo Sawaki

Yeah, Kodo!

Gassho, Jundo

Re: Zazen and doubt

In the words of someone who understood a lot more than I do:

"Zazen never becomes anything special, no matter how long you practice. If it becomes something special, you must have a screw loose somewhere."
-Kodo Sawaki

[Tb]

Re: Zazen and doubt

Hi.



Mtfbwy
Tb

[Dosho]

Re: Zazen and doubt

Hi all,

Facing the wall has never felt right when I sit, but I have tried to drop the idea of what feels "right" since being here at Treeleaf. My question has always been about how to tell the difference between something you are resisting and when trying something else is actually a good idea. Basically, I try not to think about it too much and after a time trying something else will just be the thing to do or it won't.

That make any sense? Hmm...

Gassho,
Scott

Re: Zazen and doubt

It sounds like you are "trying too hard" in your sitting to FOCUS FOCUS FOCUS on the breath, STEADY, STEADY STEADY on the wall, perhaps? In fact, we do not focus on the breath except during the time we are first starting Shikantaza, maybe for a few weeks or couple of months. Please stop, and just sit with you mind focus open, spaciously, on everything and nothing in particular around you, dropping thoughts, goals and effort. Just sit. Forget the breath, forget the wall.

Yes, you're right. I'm afraid that I'm trying to hard. I will try to follow your advice, but having my "mind focus open, spaciously on everything and nothing" seems quite difficult. Anyway, having no goal, keeping my mind focus open couldn't be so hard!

Thanks Jundo!!!
Gassho,
Hernán

[Hoko Steve]

Re: Zazen and doubt

i kinda had a similar experience a couple of weeks ago. but in my case, i was focusing on my breath, and of course, there were thoughts in the "background" and i questioned that if I was not "thinking" about those thoughts, then "who" was? i know "i"wasnt......but "i" was......

i thought it was an interesting feeling.

Gassho

steve

[Jundo]

Re: Zazen and doubt

so, jundo, are going to recommend facing the room now rather than the wall?
craig

Hi Craig,

My first 20 years or so of Zazen, I only "faced the wall". That is traditional "Soto" style in Japan. Then, I spent several years sitting with a White Plum Sangha ('White Plum', and those deriving from Maezumi Roshi, practice a hybrid of Rinzai and Soto forms), and sat facing everyone in the room. It was nice, to face into the world.

So, I began to do both at different times, and not be such a "fundamentalist" on wall facing. As well, I do tell folks that the true "quiet room" for Zazen need not be a quiet room, and encourage folks to sit once every week or so in a noisy or distracting location (a subway platform, shopping mall, urban downtown ... Lotus Posture not necessary for that), with the idea that the true "quiet room" is of one's own making. For example, this sitting we did by the side of a busy highway ...

http://blog.beliefnet.com/treeleafzen/2 ... sic-1.html

Recently, I was re-reading historian John R. McRae's "Seeing Through Zen", which is a wonderful revisionist history, refreshing for his knocking down of various stereotypes and assumptions. I was looking at a section in which he discusses how Master Bodhidharma' s famous "wall contemplation" likely references, not "sitting facing a wall", but something more along the lines of "sitting like a wall", undistracted by what is passing through the senses.

And that may have been the "last straw". I still think facing the wall is marvelous, but so are all the other ways described above. So, I am recommending a mixture as of this moment!

Gassho, J

[Craig]

Re: Zazen and doubt

so, jundo, are going to recommend facing the room now rather than the wall?
craig