Is my Zazen working???

[AndrewH]

I sit in the mornings for 15 minutes and stare at the wall. It does however just feel like I am just spending 15 mins sitting quietly while I carry on my normal thoughts. I then go about my day not feeling any difference than a day I do not sit.

So am I doing something wrong or is this it???

Sat today

[Jundo]

I sit in the mornings for 15 minutes and stare at the wall. It does however just feel like I am just spending 15 mins sitting quietly while I carry on my normal thoughts. I then go about my day not feeling any difference than a day I do not sit.

So am I doing something wrong or is this it???

Sat today

Hello,

You are new to this, so may not realize that Zazen is not simply sitting around. It is not just sitting there, having thoughts, twiddling the thumbs.

Please read this, and it will show you the subtle nature of this, and what needs to be in sitting.

WHAT's OFTEN MISSING in SHIKANTAZA EXPLANATIONS ....

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15111-WHAT-s-OFTEN-MISSING-in-SHIKANTAZA-EXPLANATIONS

It is vastly different from just sitting around like a bump on a log.

For, in Shikantaza, one sits with a trust deep in the bones that this sitting is a Buddha sitting, not one more thing to do, nothing lacking, no other place one can be, the sitting as all the universe sitting, with radical equanimity that all that is is just as it is.

Sit, let thoughts come, but do not grab on, do not get tangled in long trains of thought, do not stir them up. Just let them come and let them go like passing clouds. Sit in radical equanimity, but with conviction that Zazen is complete, with no other place to be in that moment, nothing more in need of doing.

If you feel that Zazen is missing something, then it is missing something. If you feel that Zazen is complete as Zazen, and that it hits the spot, then Zazen hits the spot. The reason is that Zazen is just Zazen, like life and the world are just life and the world. All the judging, rating, feeling something missing is done between your ears. You are looking for pay-offs, when the greatest pay-off is no longer to feel need for there is no sense of lack.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Shokai]

There is no good zazen nor is there any bad zazen; it's just Your Zazen !

合掌
stlah

[Jundo]

There is no good zazen nor is there any bad zazen; it's just Your Zazen !

合掌
stlah

Yes, this is vitally important too! How often we live in a world of constantly rating and judging "good vs. bad," so how to "rate" a practice which involves our dropping the constant judging of "good vs. bad"??

Right Zazen and Wrong Zazen

[A]llowing things to just be the way they are, no judging, not resisting, being with the flow, allowing 'happy' days to be happy and 'sad' days to be sad, all while dropping all idea of 'happy' and 'sad', whether really enjoying or really not enjoying ... fully dropping away any and all thought of doing Zazen 'right' or doing it 'wrong' ... THIS IS DOING IT RIGHT. And when you are doing it right, it will usually feel like you are doing it right, for there is no resistance, and a great sense of balance, insight and brilliance..

Fighting things, wishing things were some other way that how they are, judging, resisting, going against the grain and the flow, wishing 'sad' days were happy or 'happy' days were happier ... filled with a sense of self bumping up against all the other 'selfs', with a mind held by thoughts of doing Zazen 'right' or doing it 'wrong' ... THIS IS DOING ZAZEN WRONG. And when you are doing it wrong, it will usually feel like you are doing it wrong, for there is resistance, and a sense of imbalance, cloudiness, greyness.

But as well, even at those times when Zazen feels 'wrong', when there is resistance or imbalance ... it is still 'right', still 'Zazen', still just what it is. IT CANNOT BE WRONG. This last point is vital to understanding.
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...nd-Wrong-Zazen

Gassho, J

STLah

[AndrewH]

Thank you both very helpful
Gassho
Sat

[JohnS]

In rereading the link you posted Jundo, I am a bit confused. We are not to seek anything, yet you mention things like "nurture these feeling", and certain ways of thinking about zazen. Wouldn't this be seeking them, in a way? How are we to nurture feelings, when we arent supposed to feel anything in zazen?

Gassho

John

STLah

[Jundo]

In rereading the link you posted Jundo, I am a bit confused. We are not to seek anything, yet you mention things like "nurture these feeling", and certain ways of thinking about zazen. Wouldn't this be seeking them, in a way? How are we to nurture feelings, when we arent supposed to feel anything in zazen?

Gassho

John

STLah

Nurture the feeling of nothing more to nurture, nothing lacking.

Where in heck did you get the idea that we are not supposed to feel anything in Zazen? That's not true! Perhaps we could say that we do not get swept away by extreme emotions (especially negative or harmful emotions, like anger), which also sitting in a calm and still place too that is the core of emotions.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Showan]

Whenever I sit zazen, after I get up (slowly!), I silently say to myself, "That was the content of my zazen."
108 bows of gratitude to Sawaki Roshi and Uchiyama Roshi for this perspective.

Max

[Dogukan]

I would like to add that the following sentences from Dogen Zenji's Bendowa fascicle help me whenever this very question starts popping up in my head. Maybe it can be a source of motivation for someone else:

"Zazen, even if it is only one human being sitting for one moment, thus enters into mystical cooperation with all dharmas, and completely penetrates all times; and it, therefore, performs, within the limitless universe, the eternal work of the Buddha’s guiding influence in the past, future, and present. For everyone, it is completely the same practice and the same experience."

And, thank you Jundo for your answer. Your explanation is really a helpful one and this "radical equanimity" idea really seems like a vital point to realizing the essential nature of Zazen. Sometimes, I feel that I am connected with this radical equanimity to an extent; and other times, when my mind is quite scattered or when I'm just conquered by some kind of expectation, I recall this phrase. Most of the time it helps but again, sometimes, my sitting turns into almost a kind of object-focused meditation, or even sometimes my mind quickly turns this phrase into a mantra. I keep repeating "Radical equanimity", "There's no bad zazen", "No other place I can be"... And neither contemplating about equanimity nor repeating the word equanimity can be a form of equanimity, let alone radical equanimity. So I wonder if there's anything that you can recommend. Thanks a lot.

Gassho, Doğukan.
Sat.

[Jundo]

I keep repeating "Radical equanimity", "There's no bad zazen", "No other place I can be"... And neither contemplating about equanimity nor repeating the word equanimity can be a form of equanimity, let alone radical equanimity. So I wonder if there's anything that you can recommend. Thanks a lot.

Just radically accept with equanimity that sometimes you struggle to feel equanimity, and do not feel equanimity. Equanimity about no equanimity.

(By the way, your short "mantra" practice is interesting, and is acceptable for a few minutes, or on very stormy days, to settle a bit. It is like following the breath for some minutes. Then, after reciting or following the breath, I encourage folks to sit in open awareness if they can.)

Gassho, J

STLah

[Dogukan]

Just radically accept with equanimity that sometimes you struggle to feel equanimity, and do not feel equanimity. Equanimity about no equanimity.

(By the way, your short "mantra" practice is interesting, and is acceptable for a few minutes, or on very stormy days, to settle a bit. It is like following the breath for some minutes. Then, after reciting or following the breath, I encourage folks to sit in open awareness if they can.)

Gassho, J

STLah

Doğukan,
Sat.

[Rich]

I sit in the mornings for 15 minutes and stare at the wall. It does however just feel like I am just spending 15 mins sitting quietly while I carry on my normal thoughts. I then go about my day not feeling any difference than a day I do not sit.

So am I doing something wrong or is this it???

Sat today

The mind is habituated to achieving, acquiring, grasping anything and everything. When your center becomes stronger you may notice the joy of doing nothing. Until then keep practicing



Sat/lah


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[Gregor]

Since we have been talking about Muho on other threads I think this fits here nicely. . .

https://youtu.be/QEYGdFiUVaw

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[Tomás ESP]

Since we have been talking about Muho on other threads I think this fits here nicely. . .

Wow his look is intense like that of a tiger yet calm and serene, very striking. As for the message, I agree. The more time I put into the practice, the more deluded I realize I am

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Jundo]

Since we have been talking about Muho on other threads I think this fits here nicely. . .

Lovely! So, makes one wonder why Muho and the Antaiji folks sit their sesshin for 50 minutes a sit, 15 hours a day, if "good for nothing, nothing to attain"? Hmmm. It is a Koan. Muho is also Rinzai trained, and is a tough guy with a taste for very hard sitting (you should hear his stories about being in the Rinzai monastery, and having to defecate on the Zafu because not allowed to move, and pity the people sitting next to you when that happens! Then, they can't even wash up afterwards.)

I like to say that, sometimes, one must sit very very long, and very very hard, all to realize the real meaning of this "good for nothing, nothing to attain." It is something like climbing a great mountain, not to get to the top, but for the climb itself, every step of the way its own summit!

On the other hand, sitting a very short time, any place, is also the summit, and the whole mountain, "good for nothing, nothing to attain."

Many years ago, Muho saw a video of me sitting Zazen by the side of a busy highway, sitting in my car for a few minutes. I had to explain to him that one can sit anywhere, not only in the Lotus Posture, and that the busy highway is quiet when the heart is quiet. So, we have a little bit of a different in approach about where and when, and for how long, is always necessary for this "good for nothing, nothing to attain." I think that, recently, he has come to realize this a little more, so Treeleaf had a good effect on Muho too.

Sometimes sit long, sometimes sit short, sometimes sit hard, sometimes sit soft ... always sit beyond time and measure.

One can defecate on the Zafu, sit for 15 hours, or sit quietly in a car by the busy highway ... all "good for nothing, nothing to attain."

Gassho, J

STLah