Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

[Longdog]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

Mmmmm :? don't feel to good about that prospect.

The links with such commercialism, reduced talks & sittings, is it the thin end of a wedge from their side :? Get you in and then start tightening the screws.

It must be nice to be invited, but I very much doubt it's for their love for 'guided zen'

From day one, one of the reasons I liked treeleaf was your talks and sittings. I have enough to just read on Zen/Buddhism.

But it's your party and you are the one trying to manage it as best you can and you are the teacher here.

In gasho, Kev

[Martin]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

Yes, it's a bit unsettling. I suppose change always is. I like Jundo's connection to the precept about not being stingy with the dharma teaching, though.

Also, Jundo has often (ok, sometimes) encouraged us to sit zazen outside the home, and there have been broadcasts e.g., from a public park. I like that. I sit most of my zazen at work,and I do that mainly because it justs fits better into my schedule that way. But I also feel that if I can't sit zazen - or find the mind of zazen - in the middle of my confused and hectic life, then what good is it? It would just be an escape. And I think we can probably "do treeleaf" even on Rupert Murdoch's site, and if we couldn't, then that would be someting to work on.

Gassho

Martin

[Shindo]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

Hi Guys

just to add my two cents to this debate

- thank you Jundo for seeking our views
- Jundo is the driver of the bus, I am just a bozo
- we have a couple of years worth of past Jundo daily talks, which we can dip into if we have withdrawal symptoms
- I trust Jundo to police this forum, just as he has demonstrated in the past
- I would suggest a 3-6 month pilot & review
- all life is change

Take care

Jools

[Borsuk]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

It's time to speak:

This is a tricky one. I'm naturally very wary of anything connected to Rupert Murdoch and the profit-centred world view of large corporations... And what Chessie said about those finding Treeleaf being the people who take the trouble to find it struck a chord... BUT:
a) I trust Jundo's judgement and am reassured by the fact that he has a background in law! Just as long as belief net doesn't end up owning the rights to Treeleaf and we can bail if necessary.
b) Spreading the Dharma is what it's all about and this could help Treeleaf reach more people. God knows, the world needs it! We are one consciousness. If we can help drop a little more peace into that collective then we might see some real change for the better in this world. Ultimately, the political and social world is an effect of our collective consciousness. The more people sit, the better!
c) the technology gliches must be a bit of a pain in the....

So, all things considered, I would give it a try. If we don't, we'll never know...

I enjoy the daily 'sit-alongs' and often check eagerly when I get back from work to see if something has been posted. They are inspiring and help motivate me to sit. However, treeleaf must be a heck of a lot of work so three 'sit-alongs' + the live Saturday Zazenkai might be more manageable and Jundo could put more into those and focus on what he really wants to say...

Don't know if I've said anything constructive but here it is! I just also want to say that I really appreciate all you folks in the Sangha and I'm proud to be part of Treeleaf and share it with you. Knowing you guys are out there gives me a lot of strength

Gassho,
David

[Myoshin]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

Well I must say, like others, the prospect of the commercialized guided zen with Jundo at a Fox controlled page was a bit of a startler, but after reading all the posts and thinking on the issue. I must ask one thing...Why not? It seems that if this does not work out that we can pull out of the "Happy Zen Talks from your humble gassho-ing host with the most JUNDO!"

I do like the sit-along videos and think they are a great experience, but I also think that experience should be shared, we cannot keep this solely for ourselves.

In all seriousness though, I must say that I trust Jundo in this matter, as many others have said, this is his bus, I am just the semi-quiet one in the back who chirps in every once and a while.

So all in all, I say we should give it a go, if anything happens or some extreme suggestions occur Jundo has assured that he can get out of it, so I see no harm in giving something new a try.


Just my opinion. I look forward to see what comes out of this.

Gassho from the back of the bus 8) ,

Kyle

[Hans]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

Hey Folks!

Let's just give it a try, Jundo is a lawyer after all. The "worst" that can happen is that everything stays the way it is...although I do think that a few new challenges could await. The fact that the overall mood here at treeleaf is able to sustain its healthy and welcoming balance is also due to the fact that at this moment in time not tooo many people are involved, I mean we've been going for a quite a few months now and haven't had any truly nasty troll attacks here... let's just see what happens. I'm sure we won't be exposed to Jundo Chopra or something

Gassho,

Hans ( a media muppet himself)

[Shui_Di]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

Hi, Jundo...

don't forget to tell us the address of your talks in beliefnet. And it will be better if you post the link of your talks in to our treeleaf blog... so it will not make some folks become confuse for searching your talks in beliefnet, remembering there are a lot of other's blog in beliefnet, i think....

Thanks..

Gassho, Shuidi

[Gregor]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

Hello Jundo and Sangha:

I think this would be an allright change, real Buddhism and Zen are under represented (even misrepresented) in our society and this would be a wonderful way to reach out to so many people with Dharma.

Sounds like the sit-alongs will remain, silent sittings would be great, three talks a week would be great too. I love the talks they are very useful and informative -- but as a Dogen style Shikantaza based group I think we all understand that while words and itellectualization are a guide to the way; practice is the way :P

I understand the concerns that have been expressed and they are legitimate. However, If things don't work out Jundo can always switch back to the blog on blogger.

Let's not be afraid --- Belief.net actually seems to have a high quality of information and we have something to offer them as well. I think we should embrace the opportunity. Overall I think there is not much to loose, we can always change course if things go the wrong way, but it might turn out to be a really good thing ---- let's try it.

[Yugen]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

I do not want to repeat much of the ground that has been so well covered and issues that have been so well expressed.

Two points:

1) Consistent with the precept study this week regarding stinginess and the dharma - we do not wish to be stingy, but what is the intention of those who receive, or in this case, host, the teaching? Fox represents the Wal-mart of news outlets - driving smaller, local, independent outlets out of business. The independence of our Sangha and the freedom of our discussion is paramount - freedom may not be circumscribed just by restrictions on exercise of speech but by access as well-if it is difficult for us to access the blog due to traffic, etc., our freedom of speech is being curtailed. I value the dharma talks, and I feel their frequency provides the currency and vitality of the sangha, at least to me.... three a week I could accept, but the trend worries me....

2) Which leads me to the second point - if the decision is to reevaluate after several months - does the terms of service agreement allow for the blog, its content, and membership to disengage? Jundo is the attorney, and I am not, but there are parallels to Intellectual property law in this space. Does any of the content, discussion history, private messaging, member information, etc., become property of the new host, and therefore unretrievable in the event the decision is made to withdraw after several months? I may be making much of nothing, and I stress again that I am not an attorney, but I would like to make sure this issue is covered. If individuals continue to post with the same level of honesty and inquiry as they have in the past, these posts might be more easily available to those conducting background checks via the internet for employment, etc. These posts can be found now if the right combination of keywords are employed, but it is difficult. A higher profile host and enhanced membership identification requirements might threaten the level of openness that exists. We must understand that anything we post on the web is public content...

Gassho,
Alex

[Jundo]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

Hi Guys,

I emphasize again that the only thing I foresee really changing is the URL (internet address) of the blog ... not anything about the blog itself, or content of the blog or the style, no limitations on what can or will be said by your charming host. I will continue to be the same silly billy as always. And as I said, about the same number of talks per week as until now (given technical realities) .

There are no issues of limited access because of heavy traffic. And this forum is not moving or changing in any way. So, no question of impact on the content here, discussion history, private messaging, member information or anything here. This forum is untouched.

If it becomes a concern, I suppose there is a way to set up a private "members only" area of this Forum, password protected, for somewhat more sensitive discussions (I really have not considered the issue).

You'll see.

Politically, I am no fan of Foxnews in any way. But, gee, you guys never go to see a 20th Century Fox movie, never watch a Fox tv show? I promise you that I will not become the Bill O'Reilly of Buddhism ("Hey, what about that war on Rohatsu?") *

I promise you Fair and Balanced Zen! * :shock:

Gassho, J

*Not sure that joke will make sense outside the US.

PS- And haven't you guys heard of the famous "Fox Koan"???

The wild fox k?an, also known as "Pai-chang 's fox" and "Hyakuj? and a Fox," is an influential k?an story in the Zen tradition dating back as early as 1036, when it appeared in the Chinese biographical history T'ien-sheng kuang-teng lu. It was also in The Gateless Gate (Japanese: Mumonkan), a 13th century collection of 48 k?ans compiled by the Chinese monk Wumen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_fox_koan

[Rev R]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

Hey guys,

I think a lot of this concern over Beliefnet suggesting that Jundo change the content of his teaching is a bit unwarranted.

A few points:

1. Jundo has given his word that this won't happen. Some of you old timers know that if Jundo ever slips on his word, we are encouraged to call shenanigans. (aside: speaking of which, what happened to Harry?) Personally, I don't think the old man ever takes a promise lightly.

2. To use his own metaphor, Jundo sells fish. If you are looking for something other than fish, you are talking to the wrong guy. It applies to folks coming to Treeleaf for instruction in Soto Zen, it applies to his current teaching method on blogspot, and it will apply to what is presented on Beliefnet.

3. I've seen with my own two eyes that Jundo will go from teddy bear to hardass in .3 seconds if he is told that he can't teach a certain way. If other "Buddhists" can't push him around, I seriously doubt the staff of Beliefnet can.

To the point of looky-loos:

Honestly, I think that concern is a bit elitist. It's almost like folks are saying, "Please Master, keep the doors locked! Do not allow that unwashed rabble in our sacred space!" Although the precept of Generosity keeps getting tossed about, the vibe I'm getting seems like it's being kept begrudgingly and not with a heart of genuine compassion. Every one of us was curious or a looky-loo at some point.

My opinion is that the Way is open to everyone, period. This fear of some horde of new members flooding this forum might as well be taking a big dump on the Triple Gem.

The lotus grows in mud.


R

[BrianW]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

If it becomes a concern, I suppose there is a way to set up a private "members only" area of this Forum, password protected, for somewhat more sensitive discussions (I really have not considered the issue).

This is an excellent idea! Even in Treeleaf’s current form, I have thought that it would be nice to have the opportunity to post some comments in a somewhat less public manner…..a bit more like discussions one might have in a non-virtual sanga. Probably 99% of posts could be left in the current public form, but one or two threads could be available for more private discussions.

Change can be a bit threatening, but if handled wisely positive outcomes can result. This not only eases my concerns over a move to BELIEFNET.COM, but improves Treeleaf as it currently exists.

Gassho,
BrianW

[Juko]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

"I promise you Fair and Balanced Zen!"

Gassho, J

Cool with me then.

Gassho, Tina

[Dosho]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

For me, it comes down to whether or not I trust Jundo to make decisions about his own life...of course I do! I appreciate him asking us, but as the teacher and founder it is his perogative.

One thing that did occur to me though: Is it really necessary to completely end the current blog to start the other? I'm guessing it's just less work and for that I can't find any fault, but even Chopra has his own blog on his website that seems apart from the one on Beliefnet.

Just a thought. I'm up for anything teach!

[Undo]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

Unfortunately I think it's starting to get a little sour.
Jundo asked all treeleafers what they thought about the changes he has in mind. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to say their bit. They are also allowed to change that opinion, and more than once if they like.

When people start suggesting others are being selfish or not getting to grips with the idea, because they hold a different opinion, it starts to become rather insulting and will not help the situation. I understand some people are very protective over this sangh and feel the changes Jundo is thinking of making might not be the best. On the other hand maybe some people are a little too protective over Jundo too. Either way is understandable and fine as long as it can be dealt with nicely.


Gassho and fingers crossed,

Philip

Personally either I stay, go or come and go. It has always been like that.