Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

[KellyRok]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

Hello all,

I don't feel that sharing our sittings with others is a bad thing. However, I am not as familiar with beliefnet as others of you are. I'm okay with the move as long as, if it doesn't work out, we can return here for the sit alongs...But I'm sure Jundo will be careful not to be trapped into continuing anything with them if it becomes uncomfortable or if they start to try changing Treeleaf's mission.

I do enjoy the talks before we sit though and would be saddened to only have three sit alongs a week, as I sit with them now most everyday. I'm open to trying it out with the written talks mixed in, but it makes me uncomfortable to think that (like some of you have also shared) beliefnet is already wanting to make these changes to something that has worked for us for so long. I don't find sitting everyday and the talks overwhelming and never have since I started not even a year ago.

If others are overwhelmed on the beliefnet site, they can simply choose not to "sit a long" everyday.

I tend to agree with Philip regarding the content I've found on beliefnet. It seems too western, too cold and too 'new age' so to speak. I live in North America, but I believe that as a "westerner" we need more of the eastern influence and philosophies that so enrich the Buddhist culture.

But I trust Jundo and his judgement. I am not opposed to the change, as I've mentioned. I just hope it doesn't take anything away from what you've (Jundo and all of the Sangha members) worked so hard to build up here.

I really wasn't very helpful, was I?

Gassho,
Kelly

[chessie]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

I panicked at first reading, but with further thought settled down. A little. a few random thoughts:

1. I've subscribed to the B-Net 'daily buddhist readings' for a while now, to get my daily sound-bite of Buddhist writings. I've never seen much in the discussions, forums or blogs otherwise that interested me much. Looking carefully a the current B-Net blog list, Jundo will be in with some major famous names, which is a complement. On the other hand, most of my impressions are that the writings there are for casual readers, shallow content, and a way to spout personal opinions. I wouldn't want Jundo to devolve into just another 'talking head'.

2. I probably use the daily 'sit with Jundo' less than anyone else here, since I can't access the blog at work, and I can't sit at home. But, I go into the blog at night to catch up on the readings there. So, in that respect, having fewer sitting and more readings would actually work to my benefit.

3. The people who come here, IMHO, are serious seekers who want a depth of study or teachings not found elsewhere. What I'm hearing is that moving the blog would be 'good advertising' for Treeleaf. First, if people aren't interested enough to find it as it is now, are they interested enough to become part of the family? Second, I still worry that the floodgates would open--I'm assuming that all new people would still have to register and be admitted by Jundo's moderation, but to say that there won't be that much of it is perhaps naive. Finally, I see B-Net as a home for seekers, dabblers, and curiousity folks. Treeleaf is for those who have gone beyond those stages. Okay, I'm being a parochial close-minded snob here, but those are my honest thoughts...we don't need advertising--the people we want are the people who have gone through the trouble to find us.

4. B-Net already has a zen forum. If I were to find Jundo's blog there first, I would look at the zen forum there first. How will it happen to know that the forum there and the forum here are totally different, and that Jundo has no part in that forum already? and, in admittedly direct contradiction to my concern in item 3 above, perhaps people there would find Jundo's blog, then look inside B-Net and find that forum, and whether they realize it is or is not related to Jundo's blog, just stop there thinking they are home. I've frankly never found that forum very interesting.

5. Treeleaf is like going to Jundo's cabin in the woods (very figureatively). B-Net is the biggest shopping center in the largest urban city. I live a fairly isolated life, and this is the only 'community' of any sort that I've been a part of in decades. I love and trust the sangha, and feel warm and comfortable here. I deeply worry that putting any part of treeleaf into the middle of that shopping center will unavoidably change other parts of it, somehow. It's easy for us to share our lives on a personal basis. Advertising is done with the objective to get more people involved. At some point, the more people are here the more public it gets and the less personal it could be. I'm frankly scared of crowds. If this results in the forum getting too big, or somehow otherwise shifting (despite Jundo's assurance that won't happen--with more people some type of qualitative change is inevitable) then I'll probably go back to just reading, and hunker back down in my little heritage-home.

okay, those are my thoughts and fears. I thought about doing this in an email to Jundo, but I'm just a little too curious what other peoples thoughts would be.

thanks, Ann

[roky]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

my primary reason for being with treeleaf is to sit with others in the zen hall, just as i would if there was a physical zen center down the street -- unfortunately, this has not happened -- but i continue to hope that it will, and i will continue to sit in the hall(currently having a wifi antenna problem, so no webcam today) -- this is the major feature that i would not want to see altered, i.e., please keep the zen hall

i am not as attached to daily talks -- weekly is fine, more ok - but again, i really like sitting with others, including jundo -- yes, for me, all the talk, definitely including my own, is blah-blah-blah, re:zen -- i need to practice zazen

gassho, bob

[Dojin]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

after giving it some thought i must say as most of the sangha have said.... i like the sit along and i really do like your talks Jundo, as i have said many times, i feel you speak from the bottom of your heart and it touches me, thank you so much for that... Gassho!

so i would like to have a talk everyday... but you 3 a week is alright too.

also as others have said if it doesnt work out we can always go back to what was before or even find something else... i dont think that the core of this sangha can be dissolved by something. we will always sit together even if we are so many kilometers apart.

as for the talks themselves i was wondering will we still be using ustream? or do they have some other thing that lets you preload the talks ( in my opinion the only problem with the talks are the technical ones ). i would love to be able to preload them or even download them and view them at my own time... without the need to pause every minute or so to watch and listen to them ( sometimes it took me 30 minutes to here a 5 minute talk ).

as for new people coming to the forum it would be nice... as much as i like the old and familiar it is always nice to meet new people who are truly interested and wish to join.... so far everyone who came here are getting along very well and it really feels like a sangha to me... Thank you everyone i really do hold you all in very high regard... may you be well and happy!

bottom line is i am not against it, i would like to see what happens and how it goes if it doesnt work out.... well in that case we will work something out

Gassho.

[Dosho]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

Hi all,

I had been checking the forum about once a day this past week and things were generally quiet, but I get in today and see all the buzz! So, my $0.02.

My inital reaction is to be not very enthusiastic about the change. I have visted Beliefnet here and there over the years and I have never found it a useful place to visit regularly. It serves a very large population which is potentially a good thing, but some of the forum discussions get downright nasty. A friend of mine once volunteered to run a board but quit after a month due to all the strife. Hearing that it's run by Murdoch's cadre doesn't really surprise me or give me any more enthusiasm for the change.

With all that said, I have come to trust Jundo's judgment in how he runs things and to let him find his own way without too much complaining. I do worry about losing the family feel we've created around here but that's always the case when something is growing and changing. To cling to what is and to not be open to what could be is very un-buddhist in my opinion.

For me, I have really enjoyed the daily sit a longs and always wish there were more of them. I can see why Jundo wouldn't want to commit to one everyday since there may be days where he doesn't have that much to say (that's where the silent sittings have come in nicely). However, putting a limit of 3 a week would make me sad and I just wonder if Beliefnet's suggestions would soon become "strong suggestions" and so forth.

Ultimately, I think Jundo can keep the feel he has created even at Beliefnet and I assume there is no ironclad contract that says he can't resume what Treeleaf has been if things don't go as planned. I do like that we seem to be out on our own island here at Treeleaf and I would actually encourage any plan that prompted more ferries and folks stopping by, but this feels like moving the whole operation to the mainland and adding it to a very busy street. I think there is some value in the fact that you have to do some searching to find us but I can't quarrel with Jundo's desire to open us up to more potential visitors.

If I had a vote, I'd vote no, but 1) I don't have a vote and 2) there's a reason for that. It's Jundo's show and I support him in anything he decides he'd like to do. I do thank him however for opening up the topic for discussion.

Gassho,
Scott

[chicanobudista]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

Jundo I'll respect and abide by the yours and the majority decision.
My only thing with them is that their web page is "busier" than a teen's MySpace profile. :shock: :mrgreen:

[Eika]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

I vote to give it a shot. We won't really know the downsides and upsides until the move, and Jundo would move it back from beliefnet if this move causes significant problems. I've been to beliefnet before but never spent much time there because there wasn't much there I was interested in. I admit, I like that we are a little of the beaten path. Not so much that people can't find us, but just enough that we aren't blasted by large amounts of traffic.

There was an old farmer in the country. One day, his stallion broke its fence and ran away. His neighbors said "that's so bad!" The old farmer just shrugged and said "Maybe".

The next day, wanting some oats, the stallion returned. And, it brought three wild fillies with it. His neighbors said "that's great luck!" The old farmer just shrugged and said "Maybe".

The farmer's teenage son went out to break one of the new horses. It bucked him, and he broke his leg. His neighbors said "what horrible luck!" The old farmer just shrugged and said "Maybe".

The army then came around, conscripting young men to fight in a war. Because of the broken leg, they didn't take the farmer's teenage son. The neighbors said "what great luck!" The old farmer just shrugged and said "Maybe...."

Gassho,
Bill

[Jundo]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

Hi Fellow Leafers,

Okay, let me make then four promises to everybody ...

1- I intend to keep doing what we do on the blog here ... just over there. No change in the content, seriousness, or timeless profundity of what I try to discuss on the blog. Serious Zen Buddhism for serious zen folks (except when it is silly and crazy Buddhism for silly and crazy Zen folks, like on many days!). Just like now. As far as I am concerned, it is just a change in web address so more folks doing Zazen alone at home can know about that.

2- The fact of the matter is that technological limitations have meant that, for all practical purposes, I cannot get a video posted at least 2 or 3 days a week, even now. Unless the connection is perfect, it cuts out or will not connect at all. This past week, my family and I were in a place where internet conditions were primitive. There are many many sittings that never get posted because, after the sitting, I find it just did not record or disconnected near the start. I still manage to get about 4 or more sittings up each week, even if it means repeating two or three times my talk and sitting, or walking around town for a strong connection. (Truly, the fact that we got the Rohatsu Retreat recorded without a hitch ... something of a ROHATSU CHRISTMAS MIRACLE! ) Oh, and life does have its say too ... sick kids, sick me, unexpected work emergencies. I sometimes cover this by reposting a special sitting from the past. Anyway, I still vow to sit each and every day which the universe (and the world wide web within it) allows! Other days will be a "re-sit" or a written posting.

3- I WILL NOT ALLOW THIS FORUM TO CHANGE IN ATMOSPHERE OR WARMTH OR SERIOUSNESS OR COZINESS. Even if some "just curious" folks stop in ... they never stay. In fact, to limit people from entering our gates (an old Zen trick ... they used to keep prospective monks sitting Zazen outside in the snow for a week before letting 'em in), I will require anyone joining the Forum in the future to commit to sitting Zazen (and that means Shikantaza) daily, or they should not come in (with special exceptions, such as people who strike me as truly with a need).

4- I promise to try the beliefnet thing for, for example, 6 months or a year. If it does not work, we will come back to the old format. (One thing about my being a retired lawyer ... I will read the fine print of the contract closely to make sure we are protected).

Okay, please know how much this place means to me as much as everyone. I will not let it degrade or go down the drain. You'll see.

I am not Deepockets Chopra, I am not looking to make any money from this. Nor do I have the charismatic personality (or good looks) to do more than we are doing here, or to attract a wide non-Zenny audience. There is a small payment that may come from Beliefnet at a certain point, and I have already told them that it is going to be donated to charity.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - And however you feel about Rupert Murdock, you gotta give him one thing ... He did bring the world the Simpsons!

[Rev R]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

Deepockets Chopra

Oh snap! :lol:

[BrianW]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

I’m new here so please take my comment with a grain of salt but….. One of my primary concerns would be as Ann has stated….

Treeleaf is like going to Jundo's cabin in the woods (very figureatively). B-Net is the biggest shopping center in the largest urban city. I live a fairly isolated life, and this is the only 'community' of any sort that I've been a part of in decades. I love and trust the sangha, and feel warm and comfortable here. I deeply worry that putting any part of treeleaf into the middle of that shopping center will unavoidably change other parts of it, somehow. It's easy for us to share our lives on a personal basis. Advertising is done with the objective to get more people involved. At some point, the more people are here the more public it gets and the less personal it could be. I'm frankly scared of crowds. If this results in the forum getting too big, or somehow otherwise shifting (despite Jundo's assurance that won't happen--with more people some type of qualitative change is inevitable) then I'll probably go back to just reading, and hunker back down in my little heritage-home.

Although there may be a gate to be able to post, I am not sure how comfortable I would be in having personal comments posted on such a large forum for others to read. Yes I know we are all on the web at Treeleaf, but it does feel a bit off in the woods. Just my two cents....
Gassho,
BrianW

[Shugen]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

I'm with Bill.

Ron

[lorax]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

Hi Jundo and Treeleaf folks.

This morning when I read the post exploring the possibility of moving the virtual Sangha to a more commercial venue, I jotted lots of thoughts down intending to write this evening. Wow you guys have been busy, reading over all the posts that have been written today just about addresses all my negative and a few positive thoughts.

A couple of things that are important to me. When I first started looking at Treeleaf last April, I wanted in because of the manner Jundo lead the Sangha and his down to earth teaching. For years I have read several Buddhist journals and was put off by what seemed to be sort of a supermarket Buddhism. Pick a few eggs from this basket, a bagel from that basket etc. and then pretend it is a meal.

I was getting discouraged, until I found Jundo and Treeleaf. It is simple, direct and holds to a single lineage. I look to Jundo as a teacher, guide and over the last months a friend.

I do not want to loose this.

The second thought may not be valid, only Jundo can decide. Out here in West Texas (way out) there are not an abundance of Doctors. Those that are good, have well over a thousand patients. A situation that equates to long waits, short to the point visits, and a feeling that the Dr. really did not remember you from the last visit.

So Jundo, what if this becomes a landslide of folks joining Treeleaf? Can you find some way not to be overwhelmed? I don’t know how you do it all now.

I sure would hate to loose this close relationship because Jundo is simply snowed under.

As far as daily talks, they are very important if for no other reason that we get to see his smiling face and a reminder to keep our practice up front in everything we do for the day, from our time on the zafu, to our interpersonal relations with those we contact.

Not too worried about commercial aspects of the new site. Did any of you see those pop up advertisements in the last few weeks’ right under Jundo’s face? Easy to click the X and ignore.

Finally, the only negative issues I have found with maintaining an on line Sangha are the technical problems. Perhaps this can be a blessing in that we no longer would wonder where Jundo went or why his lips aren’t moving or why a blank white screen in the Zendo!

So that’s my thoughts, and I think Jundo addressed them all in his posts on this thread.

Jim (Lorax)

[Aswini]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

Hi all,

I trust in your judgement Jundo. I hope all will go smoothly at beliefnet. After all, I only found this place after looking at brad warners blog and my genuine interest in zen (soto) started only after reading warner's book hardcore zen. I came from a theravadin background and have not been able to go to a sitting or dhamma talk in ages and ages, so treeleaf is great. In that way if people from a broader audience find treeleaf easier to locate ,then so much the better.

On the other hand I find it difficult to be take news corp seriously. I mean as an aussie, Rupert Murdoch being one too, you already know how biased his papers and media outlets are. It is amazing that so many of his organisations uniformly hold the one right wing views of everything. And they don't even have divergent right wing views.

Coming from an economics background, it's tiresome to listen and see only lopsided views on any topic that is the general news corp approach to everything. Fair and balanced is the kind of orwellian newspeak you thought people would see through and still people are duped. I'm not saying this would effect treeleaf if it moved to beliefnet, which is altogether different subset of news media anyway. But it is a concern in the back of the mind.

Mettha.

Aswini.

[jcsuperstar]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

so does this mean we need an acount over there now? does the forum stay here but the videos are just over there?

[Jundo]

Re: Seeking Sangha Views: Moving to BELIEFNET.COM

so does this mean we need an acount over there now? does the forum stay here but the videos are just over there?

Yes, the Forum would stay here and the videos over there. You would not need any new account. G, J