What is Emptiness?

[Jundo]

There’s time for sitting and time for musings [emoji1] How amazing to be able to do both without getting tangled in either

[emoji1374] Sat Today

I really don't consider such statements just musings, but rather descriptions of the taste and insight in sitting.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Bion]

I really don't consider such statements just musings, but rather descriptions of the taste and insight in sitting.

Gassho, J

STLah

Oh, I apologize if I said something out of line. It wasn’t my intention
[emoji2309]

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Jundo]

Oh, I apologize if I said something out of line. It wasn’t my intention
[emoji2309]

[emoji1374] Sat Today

No, not out of line at all.

I mean that these musings are truly the experience of Zazen, as the hard borders of self and other drop away, and every thing, person and moment pours in and out of every thing person and moment. The best that I can muster in order to express this.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Zenkon]

Let me add my 2 cents.

Jundo and others, please correct me where I am wrong.

Normally, we think of things as independent, separate things - the tree, the car, the house, etc. Also, upon seeing something, we immediately label and evaluate that thing - the pretty tree, the old car, the fancy house. We label and evaluate things based on our preferences and experiences. A particular tree is not innately "pretty". It is pretty to YOU because of your past experiences and because of how YOU judge that tree.

Emptiness is the concept that all things are impermanent and are devoid of nature, character, and function. The tree has no essence of "prettiness" and in fact, it has no essence of "tree-ness". Their is nothing unique or permanent about that tree. It is made of wood, water, dirt, etc, which in turn are made of atoms and molecules - the same atoms which, when combined differently, make up a car or a house. In this way, the tree, the car and the house are all the same.

Why does this matter? Because, when we look at things as independent and unique, it is easy to become attached to them, to give them undeserved meaning - my house is better than your house, her car is nicer than mine. This leads to all kinds of problems of greed, anger, etc.

In zazen, while we don't try to "stop thinking", we try to stop "chasing thoughts" - a thought of a tree enters our mind. We don't "chase" that thought - we don't evaluate the tree, compare it to others, think what we like or dislike about the tree. We don't react at all - we just see the tree "as it is" and let it go. The more you do this, the more you see everything "as it is".

Gassho

Dick

sat/lah

[Suuko]

Let me add my 2 cents.

Jundo and others, please correct me where I am wrong.

Normally, we think of things as independent, separate things - the tree, the car, the house, etc. Also, upon seeing something, we immediately label and evaluate that thing - the pretty tree, the old car, the fancy house. We label and evaluate things based on our preferences and experiences. A particular tree is not innately "pretty". It is pretty to YOU because of your past experiences and because of how YOU judge that tree.

Emptiness is the concept that all things are impermanent and are devoid of nature, character, and function. The tree has no essence of "prettiness" and in fact, it has no essence of "tree-ness". Their is nothing unique or permanent about that tree. It is made of wood, water, dirt, etc, which in turn are made of atoms and molecules - the same atoms which, when combined differently, make up a car or a house. In this way, the tree, the car and the house are all the same.

Why does this matter? Because, when we look at things as independent and unique, it is easy to become attached to them, to give them undeserved meaning - my house is better than your house, her car is nicer than mine. This leads to all kinds of problems of greed, anger, etc.

In zazen, while we don't try to "stop thinking", we try to stop "chasing thoughts" - a thought of a tree enters our mind. We don't "chase" that thought - we don't evaluate the tree, compare it to others, think what we like or dislike about the tree. We don't react at all - we just see the tree "as it is" and let it go. The more you do this, the more you see everything "as it is".

Gassho

Dick

sat/lah

My 2 cents as well brother.

We are all the same and different at the same time. As Jundo used the wave analogy, I will do the same. So, we are all like different waves and are the ocean at the same time. However, we tend to think we are just the wave[emoji846]

From a particle point of view, we are all quarks if we break ourselves down but as the double slit experiment points out, all the particles have different probability distributions. So, all same and different, very Zeny.

Gassho,
Sat today,
Lah,
Guish.

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[Zenkon]

We are all the same and different at the same time

Exactly. The difficulty is in seeing both at the same time.

Gassho

Dick

[Shoki]

For me it always goes back to the wave on the ocean analogy. You can see the wave for a few seconds coming to shore but is that wave really its own separate, independent thing? What is this wave-ness? Could this wave "exist" without the ocean?

To me emptiness means all these things are not in a separate, independent, permanent existence. The water that makes the wave, wasn't it still there before it became a wave? Won't it still be there (for a while) after its not a wave anymore? So then how is this wave its own separate thing?

Sitting zazen helps me to slowly realize the above without the intellectual reasoning. Then these realizations seep into everyday life making things clearer.

Sorry for the wordy, philosophical rambling.

Gassho
stlah
Shoki

[Prashanth]

No, not out of line at all.

I mean that these musings are truly the experience of Zazen, as the hard borders of self and other drop away, and every thing, person and moment pours in and out of every thing person and moment. The best that I can muster in order to express this.

Gassho, J

STLah

I absolutely admire the depth of musings on this forum. However, part of me - as a novice - gets scared of the abstraction, especially when even seemingly simple questions (not the one here) tend to receive answers which will take years if not decades to understand. This leads to a self-doubt whether I really am to blame for not understanding what others seem to churn out of simple qwerty/qwertz keyboards, and if I really can understand anything one day.
Part of me also doubts whether some of the complexity of musings comes from the strength of vocabulary/writing prowess of the writers or if its from an in-depth understanding of the experiences being described. As a non-native English speaker, complex language and argumentation tend to be a difficulty.

I guess that's why "just sit" is the most profound answer I can go with.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho.

Sat.


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[Risho]

I think the danger in describing emptiness is that we make it into a "thing" that we can fit nicely in a box. I think it's important to do that from one perspective; our minds work that way - I feel like our brain basically converts an analog (the world, or what we feel is external to us) into binary so that we can live and make decisions and survive. It's like a map; maps are often based on a grid so we can assign coordinates, but you can never capture the full analog experience with a digital system, although you can get close it always misses the mark in some manner.

Without getting too lost in this, I think that zazen allows us to taste or "grok" as Jundo says this. I don't think we can think our way into this but we can take that understanding and try to live it - try to drop the tightening of the mind when we feel overwhelmed or too out of balance and realize that it is all one sweeping and dancing whole. Try to live in a way that doesn't lash out or keep a calm mind when everyone is losing it (like now ). Realize that "people" have the same needs as me; use that as fuel for understanding how we are connected and how my actions and words may be able to turn someone's day into something beautiful or a little less hurtful than if I attack them.

Emptiness is all this whole sweeping thing - our practice works because of Emptiness. I don't like the word Emptiness - I'd rather call it "interconnectedness" like Okumura Roshi says but I also like it because it doesn't allow me to attach to closely and pop it nto some nice little box like I understand anything or have some secret knowledge, which I don't.

And to make sure we don't just think we can just live in blissful ignorance and get drunk on emptiness - emptiness is form; we have to live this - although impossible, we have to live the precepts and bring light into the world. The precepts are in no need of keeping - they are total and complete enlightenment, and we are already enlightened, but we are also living in this conditioned world and we will always fail to live up to the precepts. If we weren't enlightened, we couldn't keep them, but if we were enlightened we wouldn't need to try - simultaneously we don't keep the precepts to gain something, we keep the precepts naturally when we get in touch with who we really are - I mean really - beyond the identity we've created in our minds.

From one perspective the Bodhisattva path is difficult; it would be so easy to stay in bed and avoid things, but this path isn't for us to gain some blissful experience and then keep it to ourselves. This is not about us taking care of our own inner light- this is about us bringing all of it to the world in any way that we can to make things better for others too. And I don't mean this from a heroic point of view - we really may only be able to impact one person - maybe make one person smile in a time of difficulty - it's a small way - it's not grandiose. It's just a consistent path toward what is right.

I know it sounds corny - but I feel the Bodhisattva path is about us living in a way that is calm and peaceful and nurturing. It can be difficult but I think, on the other hand, it is much more difficult to not just do what has to be done once we see how it has changed us; again, it's nothing heroic, nothing special, no awards are given and nothing is to be gained.

I came to this practice wanting to get, get, get, but that is just the ego trying to reaffirm itself - trying to get another award to feel validated. But this practice has brought a consistent feeling of gratitude for all of it - it has shown me what I already have; I am simply overwhelmed with how blessed I am to be here. What more could I ask for? I don't even fully know how to use the gift I've been given - but getting in touch with this practice helps me understand.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Sorry for going long

[Bion]

I absolutely admire the depth of musings on this forum. However, part of me - as a novice - gets scared of the abstraction, especially when even seemingly simple questions (not the one here) tend to receive answers which will take years if not decades to understand. This leads to a self-doubt whether I really am to blame for not understanding what others seem to churn out of simple qwerty/qwertz keyboards, and if I really can understand anything one day.
Part of me also doubts whether some of the complexity of musings comes from the strength of vocabulary/writing prowess of the writers or if its from an in-depth understanding of the experiences being described. As a non-native English speaker, complex language and argumentation tend to be a difficulty.

I guess that's why "just sit" is the most profound answer I can go with.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho.

Sat.


Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

My friend, rest assured… there is no reason to feel inadequate. Words are but words, and not everyone is good with them. Understanding and realization lie beyond one’s ability, or lack there of, to express them in words. Every bit of “understanding” is present in zazen, so we sit..
I do apologize if anything I’ve said might’ve come off as “zenny” or too intense! [emoji2309] [emoji2309] [emoji2309]

[emoji1374] Sat Today lah

[Prashanth]

My friend, rest assured… there is no reason to feel inadequate. Words are but words, and not everyone is good with them. Understanding and realization lie beyond one’s ability, or lack there of, to express them in words. Every bit of “understanding” is present in zazen, so we sit..
I do apologize if anything I’ve said might’ve come off as “zenny” or too intense! [emoji2309] [emoji2309] [emoji2309]

[emoji1374] Sat Today lah

Thank you for the assurance, Bion.
No, I didn't mean your or any other comment. Its a general observation that most answers tend to be too abstract in my eyes. Most end in the format of "That is this; This is That; yet That is not this, and this is not that; so That is that and this is this, because who can ever say this is not that too or this is that too?"

novice issues [emoji2373]

Gassho

Lied down due to back issues and "sat"

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[Nengyoku]

Thank you for the assurance, Bion.
No, I didn't mean your or any other comment. Its a general observation that most answers tend to be too abstract in my eyes. Most end in the format of "That is this; This is That; yet That is not this, and this is not that; so That is that and this is this, because who can ever say this is not that too or this is that too?"

novice issues [emoji2373]

Gassho

Lied down due to back issues and "sat"

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One man's medicine is another man's poison. If the words do not help you, then look for the ones that do. And don't feel inadequate, surely your words are medicine for someone who thinks like you do.

Gassho,
William
SatLah

[Bion]

What is Emptiness?

Thank you for the assurance, Bion.
No, I didn't mean your or any other comment. Its a general observation that most answers tend to be too abstract in my eyes. Most end in the format of "That is this; This is That; yet That is not this, and this is not that; so That is that and this is this, because who can ever say this is not that too or this is that too?"

novice issues [emoji2373]

Gassho

Lied down due to back issues and "sat"

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

Typical zen [emoji1] [emoji23]
You know, Hui Neng, at the end of his life, in his final instructions told his disciples to teach by answering everything in opposites, so if a question is asked in affirmative, to answer it in negative, if something is asked about a sage, the reply should be about an ordinary man etc.. The reason was to point to the interdependence of the two opposites. Basically, it is not wise to look at things as if they are just one clear fixed entity, cause nothing is that and that is not the buddha mind. So yeah, “zenny” answers sometimes, for sure hahaha

Sorry I keep running so long.

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Kokuu]

Its a general observation that most answers tend to be too abstract in my eyes. Most end in the format of "That is this; This is That; yet That is not this, and this is not that; so That is that and this is this, because who can ever say this is not that too or this is that too?"

I try and explain things as simply as I can but it sounds like there is room for improvement.

One book that really helped me with this stuff early on is The Heart of Understanding by Thich Nhat Hanh. For me, he has a way of explaining Buddhist concepts in a simple way but without losing any of the depth.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Meian]

I also have struggled with these more abstract concepts, including when the terms define each other (this=that, that=this, etc).

However, all have given great analogies in this thread, and I will add the recommended book to my list. I have benefited over the years from Kokuu's book recommendations.

Gassho, meian stlh

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