What is Emptiness?

[Jundo]

I absolutely admire the depth of musings on this forum. However, part of me - as a novice - gets scared of the abstraction, especially when even seemingly simple questions (not the one here) tend to receive answers which will take years if not decades to understand.

Hah! Don't blame us, for ancient Indian people invented all this non-dualistic logic and language!

But in seriousness, the strange language of Zen (not only here, but in Koans and Shobogenzo and much of the strange acts and words of the old Zen Masters) is an attempt to express in ordinary grammar and words (i.e., ordinary grammar that is subject/verb/object dualistic) this other way of experiencing the world.

Usually, a tea drinker, drinking tea from a cup while looking at a mountain, involves 4 or 5 separate things ... drinker, cup, tea, mountain ... and the act of drinking. However, Zen folks can experience everything flowing into everything else, and being the faces of everything else (I like to say that "Paris is the capital of England in France, London is the capital of France located in England, Prashanth is Jundo who was born in India and lives in Germany with your life, Jundo is Prashanth who was born in New York and lives in Japan with my life.) So, in my book, I described Master Dogen's vision of tea drinking this way ...

For example, in our ordinary experience of life, a mountain is not a cup of tea, and neither a mountain nor a cup of tea are you or me. A is not B, and neither one is C nor D. However, for Mahayana teachers like Dōgen, mountains are mountains and also cups of tea. Tiny teacups hold great mountains within, as well as the whole world and all of time. Mountains quench our thirst, mountains walk and preach the Dharma, and mountains are also other faces of you and me. It is not merely that our ordinary eyes might see a nearby mountain reflected on the liquid inside a cup, or painted on its side, or reflected like a kaleidoscope in each poured drop, but that the mountain and the whole universe is truly poured and held in every drop of tea to be tasted, and is contained in the cup itself. The teacup, though held in our hands, is also huge, boundless, as big as a mountain and the whole universe. The whole universe is just a great vessel which is also the vessel in our hands—a vessel that cradles our hands as we cradle it.

(If this is hard to get your mind around, it is fine to approach it in a poetic sense until, on the zazen cushion, one can actually realize such truths.)

When we drink tea, as it enters our mouth and we taste it on our tongue and it merges with our body, we too enter the tea, are tasted by and merge with it. Likewise, in drinking tea we enter the mountains and the whole universe. The tea swallows us as we swallow the tea, and the mountain/universe drinks us as we drink the mountain/universe— all in the simple action of tasting a cup of tea. The tea steeps all time and space as you steep tea; the mountain pours the universe as the universe moves with your hands when pouring a cup. Each drop of tea, each inch of the mountain or atom of the universe glitters as a unique and precious jewel, each unique and whole unto itself, yet each is also the all. That is the kind of world vision that Dōgen is usually expressing

Now, this is not something that is merely to be thought about and approached intellectually ... but it is something to be tasted, experienced, on (and off) the Zazen cushion as the hard borders of the self/other divide soften or drop away, and all phenomena of the universe are felt to embody all phenomena of the universe. The parts of the brain that make hard divisions between me/not me and between all individual "things, people, moments in time" of reality are softened or shut down in the meditation process. All the separate stuff gets mushed together, swirled around, and pops up again as each other.

Why is this important? As ancient Indian people discovered, the self/other divide is the cause of friction, conflict, suffering. In the dropping of this division, there can be no friction, conflict, suffering.

Yes, it takes time to experience. It is worth it.

Gassho, J

STLah

Sorry to run long

PS - Everyone, don't just think about this intellectually, it is only valuable if one actually gets a feel in the bones for such a reality going on.

[Jundo]

I try and explain things as simply as I can but it sounds like there is room for improvement.

One book that really helped me with this stuff early on is The Heart of Understanding by Thich Nhat Hanh.

Now, here is a caution I sometimes raise (I am not the only one) about TNH's explanation and approach to "Emptiness" and the Heart Sutra. It may be due to the great influence of South Asian Abhidharma philosophy on Vietnamese Buddhism, I am not sure. However, TNH is too much a materialist who breaks emptiness down into physical parts and functions, and misses the great sweeping dance of it all. For example, his famous poem on "interbeing" seems to only talk about parts and physical influences ...

If you are a poet, you will see clearly that there is a cloud floating in this sheet of paper. Without a cloud, there will be no rain; without rain, the trees cannot grow; and without trees, we cannot make paper. The cloud is essential for the paper to exist. If the cloud is not here, the sheet of paper cannot be here either. So we can say that the cloud and the paper inter-are. “Interbeing” is a word that is not in the dictionary yet, but if we combine the prefix “inter-” with the verb “to be,” we have a new verb, inter-be. Without a cloud and the sheet of paper inter-are.

If we look into this sheet of paper even more deeply, we can see the sunshine in it. If the sunshine is not there, the forest cannot grow. In fact, nothing can grow. Even we cannot grow without sunshine. And so, we know that the sunshine is also in this sheet of paper. The paper and the sunshine inter-are. And if we continue to look, we can see the logger who cut the tree and brought it to the mill to be transformed into paper. And we see the wheat. We know the logger cannot exist without his daily bread, and therefore the wheat that became his bread is also in this sheet of paper. And the logger’s father and mother are in it too. When we look in this way, we see that without all of these things, this sheet of paper cannot exist.

Looking even more deeply, we can see we are in it too. This is not difficult to see, because when we look at a sheet of paper, the sheet of paper is part of our perception. Your mind is in here and mine is also. So we can say that everything is in here with this sheet of paper. You cannot point out one thing that is not here-time, space, the earth, the rain, the minerals in the soil, the sunshine, the cloud, the river, the heat. Everything co-exists with this sheet of paper. That is why I think the word inter-be should be in the dictionary. “To be” is to inter-be. You cannot just be by yourself alone. You have to inter-be with every other thing. This sheet of paper is, because everything else is.

Suppose we try to return one of the elements to its source. Suppose we return the sunshine to the sun. Do you think that this sheet of paper will be possible? No, without sunshine nothing can be. And if we return the logger to his mother, then we have no sheet of paper either. The fact is that this sheet of paper is made up only of “non-paper elements.” And if we return these non-paper elements to their sources, then there can be no paper at all. Without “non-paper elements,” like mind, logger, sunshine and so on, there will be no paper. As thin as this sheet of paper is, it contains everything in the universe in it.”

That is an amazing poem and image. I would still criticize it for missing the forest for the trees a bit. Dogen and other Zen and Mahayana/Hua-yan folks had an even more radical vision of all things literally pouring in and out of (and as) all things, and giving life to (and being) all things. It is a subtle difference, but a bit like saying that the music and wonder of "Beethoven's Fifth Symphony" is just (to copy TNH) vibrations on strings, wind passing through metal, the seats in the theater and the paper the music is written on. He is correct, but it somehow misses the real music and the harmony of the universal symphony that is somehow sweeping all that in and much more to create the wondrous creative whole.

Or, for another example, he breaks down the car into its tires, wheels, oil, axle ... but misses the romance of the whole of reality driving and heading down the road!

I do not recommend such view in order to understand the grand Symphony of the Universe & Grand Road Trip that Dogen and other Mahayana folks were feeling.

Gassho, J

STLah

Sorry to run long

[Shinshi]

I try and explain things as simply as I can but it sounds like there is room for improvement.

One book that really helped me with this stuff early on is The Heart of Understanding by Thich Nhat Hanh. For me, he has a way of explaining Buddhist concepts in a simple way but without losing any of the depth.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Interestingly I had the exact same experience with that book. I just was kind of baffled by the Heart Sutra until I read that book. It was really so eye opening.

I will add that he came out with a later book on the Heart Sutra: The Other Shore

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/34127174-the-other-shore

It might just be because it had such a profound impact on my understanding but I strongly prefer the first book.

It was a helpful start to understanding the basic message. Although Jundo has a good point as well.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Jundo]

Interestingly I had the exact same experience with that book. I just was kind of baffled by the Heart Sutra until I read that book. It was really so eye opening.

I will add that he came out with a later book on the Heart Sutra: The Other Shore

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/34127174-the-other-shore

It might just be because it had such a profound impact on my understanding but I strongly prefer the first book.

It was a helpful start to understanding the basic message. Although Jundo has a good point as well.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

I really caution folks that the book can also be a bit of a trap. It is a good first look, however, but misses the mark. Maybe it provides a good basic understanding, but do not stop there. Truly, it misses the forest ... and the whole glorious symphony of nature ... for the trees.

Even the life and music of a tree is more than its branches, roots, leaves, sun and water, paper or lumberjacks.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Zenkon]

he breaks down the car into its tires, wheels, oil, axle ... but misses the romance of the whole of reality driving and heading down the road!

Would I be correct in saying that the emotion, the artistry is what is missing?

Gassho

Dick

[Jundo]

Here is how Dogen might re-express TNH ...

TNH -

So we can say that everything is in here with this sheet of paper. You cannot point out one thing that is not here-time, space, the earth, the rain, the minerals in the soil, the sunshine, the cloud, the river, the heat. .

Dogeny

Trees grow from our eyes, and Buddha's eyeball hangs from every branch. Roots pointing to the sky, the sky growing from the earth, as branches fall from clouds like rain. There is not one thing that is "not here-time," the tree has its own "here-time" with its own past and future, for tall trees have tall time and small trees have small here, and all is sun circling around trees as trees circle the sun in the river of time. That's hot!

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

Would I be correct in saying that the emotion, the artistry is what is missing?

Gassho

Dick

He misses to see or feel something that is key.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Prashanth]

I try and explain things as simply as I can but it sounds like there is room for improvement.

One book that really helped me with this stuff early on is The Heart of Understanding by Thich Nhat Hanh. For me, he has a way of explaining Buddhist concepts in a simple way but without losing any of the depth.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Thank you for the book recommendation. [emoji120]

Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

[Prashanth]

Now, this is not something that is merely to be thought about and approached intellectually ... but it is something to be tasted, experienced, on (and off) the Zazen cushion as the hard borders of the self/other divide soften or drop away, and all phenomena of the universe are felt to embody all phenomena of the universe. .

Yes, it takes time to experience. It is worth it.

Thank you for this very important note. Intellectual dissection is rather the issue.
Perhaps, an individual's experience would also change the expression. It may be ideal, but not necessary to have the same experience as Dogen did, right?



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[Jundo]

Thank you for this very important note. Intellectual dissection is rather the issue.
Perhaps, an individual's experience would also change the expression. It may be ideal, but not necessary to have the same experience as Dogen did, right?

Oh, Prashanth must have Prashanth experience, not Dogen, Jundo, TNH, Mary or the cat's experience.

However, the basic point is that it should be a non-dual understanding in which all divisions drop away, and yet everything is reborn and reinvigorated as everything else ... every thing, person and moment of time coming to life as every thing person or moment of time.

But do not just copy somebody's words, or read about it in a book, or copy somebody else's music ... you must learn to feel this music in your own bones.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Prashanth]

Oh, Prashanth must have Prashanth experience, not Dogen, Jundo, TNH, Mary or the cat's experience.

However, the basic point is that it should be a non-dual understanding in which all divisions drop away, and yet everything is reborn and reinvigorated as everything else ... even thing, person and moment of time coming to life as every thing person or moment of time.

But do not just copy somebody's words, or read about it in a book, or copy somebody else's music ... you must learn to feel this music in your own bones.

Gassho, J

STLah

Thank you. Very clear. I have received my answer.

Gassho

Sat

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[Bion]

Oh, Prashanth must have Prashanth experience, not Dogen, Jundo, TNH, Mary or the cat's experience.

However, the basic point is that it should be a non-dual understanding in which all divisions drop away, and yet everything is reborn and reinvigorated as everything else ... every thing, person and moment of time coming to life as every thing person or moment of time.

But do not just copy somebody's words, or read about it in a book, or copy somebody else's music ... you must learn to feel this music in your own bones.

Gassho, J

STLah

That was lovely [emoji3526] [emoji1374]

Sat today

[Risho]

Risho
-stlah

[Inshin]

I would like to highly recommend the following podcasts by Buddhist academic and practitioner John Dunne about Emptiness and Nagarjuna. Very approachable and fun. https://www.upaya.org/2013/08/reveal...-all-12-parts/

Gassho

[Shade]

I just want to say, this has been a wonderful thread to follow. Thank you all for your input and insight. It has been a joy to read.



Gassho,

Shade

ST