Karma and Rebirth

[Shoki]

I am not sold on literal rebirth simply because, maybe I'm missing something but, I see no evidence for it. One thing about zen practice that always appealed to me is that it is sort of "testable" without any supernatural elements. Most other traditions, have a lot of; believe this supernatural story because somebody said this thousands of years ago and it was written down and this is what we believe. Faith being the belief in something without evidence.

Gassho
ST-lah
Shoki

[Byrne]

The Buddha taught that we are comprised of 5 aggregates. Matter, thoughts, feelings, sensations and consciousness. All five are without a permanent form and bound to the cycle of rebirth. The energy that fuels our physical bodies keeps changing after our death. On a subtler level so do the other four. These aggregates inform the intentions behind our actions (karma) which effects the material world and continue to change. When we self identify with the five aggregates we are bound to their karma. When we detach we loosen the bind. When we achieve Buddhahood the bind is permanently severed. Which of course, is extremely difficult to do.

IMHO looking at it this way is not particularly superstitious or irrational. It can be dressed up in more mythic imagery to suit different audiences. But at its core itÂ’s a fairly direct view.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Jundo]

The Buddha taught that we are comprised of 5 aggregates. Matter, thoughts, feelings, sensations and consciousness. All five are without a permanent form and bound to the cycle of rebirth. The energy that fuels our physical bodies keeps changing after our death. On a subtler level so do the other four. These aggregates inform the intentions behind our actions (karma) which effects the material world and continue to change. When we self identify with the five aggregates we are bound to their karma. When we detach we loosen the bind. When we achieve Buddhahood the bind is permanently severed. Which of course, is extremely difficult to do.

IMHO looking at it this way is not particularly superstitious or irrational. It can be dressed up in more mythic imagery to suit different audiences. But at its core itÂ’s a fairly direct view.

Gassho

Sat Today

No problem, our energy and atoms (and maybe more) keeps on in the universe after we die ... but, tell me Byrne, do we head to the Bardo for 49 days, then spot a womb and come back ... either as a dog, a god or a guy named "Doug" ... and then come back and pay the debts or reap the rewards of what we did in this life?

I am skeptical, but in any case, be good in this life. Dog or Doug or no Dog or Doug, be good in this life.

Gassho, J

STLah

[JohnS]

Yes, the Zen folks took a further leap ... into that which neither comes nor goes, neither ends or begins ...

... yet is constant coming and going, endless ends and beginnings ...

It is considered a less superficial teaching of the Buddha for those whose heart was ready to hear it.

Gassho, J

STLah

Is there a Taoist influence on the Zen perspective?

Gassho

John Soriano

SATtoday

[Jundo]

Is there a Taoist influence on the Zen perspective?

Gassho

John Soriano

I don't believe so, John. Not in any major way. In fact, Chinese Taoism came to have much more focus on life extension alchemy to become immortal.

Rather, there is the Mahayana expressions of Emptiness, that all is "Empty" including our views of coming and going, life and death.

Did some aspect strike you as somehow Taoist?

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tomás ESP]

Is there a Taoist influence on the Zen perspective?

Gassho

John Soriano

SATtoday

There is an interesting book about this called "China Root: Taoism, Ch'an, and Original Zen" by David Hinton.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat

[Jundo]

There is an interesting book about this called "China Root: Taoism, Ch'an, and Original Zen" by David Hinton.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat

Oh, I am not a fan of that book. Yes, in a one sentence nutshell, there is no doubt at all that Chan developed as Indian Buddhism came to China and mixed with Chinese sensibilities (including certain aspects of Daoism and its perspectives on the absolute and such ... although not all aspects, such as not its alchemical search from immortality various other more fanciful beliefs), then later came to Japan and mixed with Japanese sensibilities to become "Zen."

However, Mr. Hinton way, WAY overstates his case.. He also has a bad habit of reading Chinese/Japanese Kanji characters too literally.

That said, I thought that Mr. Hinton's book way, way overstated his case by arguing that Zen is just Taoism in Buddhist skin, rather than traditional Buddhist Teachings (e.g., all the Suttas and Sutras from India, basic doctrines such as "non-self" and "Dukkha" and emptiness via Nagarjuna) expressed with a lot of Taoist flavoring and spice. It is just a matter of degree, but he overdoes it. I had the feeling that, to make his case, he cherry picked and left out a lot of Taoism beliefs that are quite distinct and that did not really become a part of Buddhism (if you read the essay about "Dark Learning," for example, you will see many differences as well as common ground). I thought that he was also a bit romantic in presentation, and saw or assumed things which he claimed without real evidence to back it up. Finally, his habit of translating by looking at the too literal meaning of the elements of some Chinese characters, and imposing English on Chinese and Japanese names, was a bit annoying to me as a translator. He seemed to have an anti-Japanese bias in the book too which mischaracterized some important aspects of Japanese, and especially Soto, Zen. So, I would take the book as a bit extreme, as someone bending over backwards to say that "Zen is just Taoism, with a little Buddhism." It is not.

CONTINUED HERE: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post277212

Sorry to have run long.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[JohnS]

Yes, your post had a sound of the Tao Te Ching to me, and I had read that Zen was influenced by Taoism, I was just wondering if that was just that author's opinion.

Gassho

John

SatTodayLAH

[Tomás ESP]

Thank you for the clarification Jundo, I was not aware of the points you made

Gassho, Tomás
Sat

[Tobiishi]

My confusion is who are you once you escape samsara. Do you cease to exist?

Who are we now? Maybe after escape is the same.

Kodo Tobiishi satlah

[Jundo]

I am just finishing a very interesting short book (about 120 pages), fairly easy to read, by the great South Asian Buddhism scholar Johannes Bronkhorst on the development of Karma ideas in India. Very interesting how they developed over time, becoming more detailed and intricate. Basically, he believes that the idea did not exist in Brahmanism originally (which developed in west India), but came to several groups such as the Buddhists and Jains of Magadha (to the east) about the same time. Brahmanism absorbed the idea of Karma and rebirth later, when it spread throughout the rest of India and South Asia.

Among the Magadha groups, there were different versions: The Jains believe that ANY action of mind or body causes Karma, so would attempt to stop all physical and mental actions, and did various physical denials and punishments, to remove Karma. Another group, the Ajivikists, were total Karma fatalists: They believed in Karma and rebirth, but believed that we can do absolutely nothing to change ours, and could only ride it out for countless eons of time. The Buddhists developed their idea of "volitional acts" as the cause of Karma, but many of the details we now take for granted ... like 6 worlds of rebirth ... were not originally part of the story. Buddhists really had to wrestle with how Karma moves from life to life if there is no "self" (the Jains believed in a soul, for example.) In any case, the ideas of Karma and Rebirth developed slowly, and over time.

The book is also interesting for indicating that several other beliefs of the Jains, Ajivikists and Brahmans "snuck back" into Buddhism later, even though early Buddhism specifically denied them. I may write about that in a separate post.

I only recommend the Bronkhorst book to Buddhism history wonks like me.

https://www.academia.edu/3288027/Karma

Gassho, J

STLah Sorry to run long

[Tobiishi]

Buddhists really had to wrestle with how Karma moves from life to life if there is no "self"

...and since we're encouraged to not worry so much about past & future lives, the old Buddhist adage "Just help people and don't be a dick" should cover karma decently, no wrestling necessary.


Kodo Tobiishi sat

[Jundo]

... the old Buddhist adage "Just help people and don't be a dick" ...

Yes, that is one way it translates from Sanskrit.

Gassho, J

STLah

[JohnS]

I dont think so. After all, since there really isnt any time, past, now, and future are all really now anyway.

Gassho

John

SatToday

[Tobiishi]

I dont think so. After all, since there really isnt any time, past, now, and future are all really now anyway.

Gassho

John

SatToday

That makes perfect simple sense, I like it!