Karma and Rebirth

[Guest]

My understanding is that karma, if negative, creates a new self in rebirth according to the karma. So if there is enlightenment and nirvana, if there is no self to be after these states are achieved, is the goal non-existence?

Gassho,

John

SatTodayLAH

[bakera3312]

Ill provide a short academic answer (Im sure many others are better at presenting other answers).

Traditionally Karma was good, bad and neutral. All led to rebirth in one of the 6 realms. Nirvana was escaping rebirth, and samsara. Many traditions changed and adapted this idea, but this was the basic one.



Tony,

[JohnS]

My confusion is who are you once you escape samsara. Do you cease to exist?

[Jundo]

My understanding is that karma, if negative, creates a new self in rebirth according to the karma. So if there is enlightenment and nirvana, if there is no self to be after these states are achieved, is the goal non-existence?

Gassho,

John

Hi John,

Well, opinions on such questions vary from Buddhist to Buddhist, but I personally (speaking for myself, not an official statement for all Buddhists ) am agnostic on the question of rebirth. I tend to question and am skeptical of very detailed descriptions of a process of rebirth after the heart stops in this one. I often say this, live gently and be nice now, and let any future lives take care of themselves, and if there are no future lives, live gently and be nice now nonetheless:

If there are future lives, heavens and hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

And if there are no future lives, no heavens or hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

Thus I do not much care if, in the next life, that "gentle way, avoiding harm" will buy me a ticket to heaven and keep me out of hell ... but I know for a fact that it will go far to do so in this life, today, where I see people create all manner of "heavens and hells" for themselves and those around them by their harmful words, thoughts and acts in this life.

And if there is a "heaven and hell" in the next life, or other effects of Karma now ... well, my actions now have effects then too, and might be the ticket to heaven or good rebirth.

In other words, whatever the case ... today, now ... live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way) ... seeking to avoid harm now and in the future too.

But as to "non-existence," that may have been the goal in some interpretations of South Asian traditional Buddhism, but Zen and the Mahayana tend to put another twist on this: Saying that there is "no self" means that our view of ourself as only a separate, individual self is incorrect, and that insight involves realizing something beyond the separate individual, and the "self/other" divide. One may speak of "emptiness" not as a lack, but as a flowing "Wholeness" that sweeps in all reality, you and me along with the whole enchilada. So, enlightenment involves realizing oneself as ALSO that, like a drop of river water realizing that it is also the flowing river. It is not losing oneself in oblivion, and quite the opposite.

In this Wholeness, we lose our separate self, but still ... while we are alive here, we are ALSO these separate individuals, so it is possible to do bad things. So, don't do bad things.

I have written some more on this here:

Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6102-Jundo-Tackles-the-BIG-Questions-VI-%28Karma%29

Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII (Life After Death?)

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6245-Jundo-Tackles-the-BIG-Questions-VII-%28Life-After-Death-%29

Let me know if those answer your questions.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Sorry to have run long.

[JohnS]

yes those answers help a lot, thank you!

Humble bow.....

[JohnS]

yes those answers help a lot, thank you!

Humble bow.....

[bakera3312]

My confusion is who are you once you escape samsara. Do you cease to exist?

Some Buddhist say yes. This was a famous issue the Buddha didn't address.

I hope I helped in some small way.



Tony

[bakera3312]

Tony,

[Jundo]

Some Buddhist say yes. This was a famous issue the Buddha didn't address.

I hope I helped in some small way.

This is generally not our Zen way, which leaps beyond existence or non-existence, and thus finds something more and right at the heart of both those options. My joke is that, if Shakespeare had been a Zen fellow, Hamlet would not have to be limited to "be or not to be."

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[bakera3312]

This is generally not our Zen way, which leaps beyond existence or non-existence, and thus finds something more and right at the heart of both those options. My joke is that, if Shakespeare had been a Zen fellow, Hamlet would not have to be limited to "be or not to be."

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Very true, and more differcult to understand in Jr. High, or easier maybe ��.

Tony

[bakera3312]

I was reading the Mulapariyaya Sutta today (it's long). However I took a lot out of it both spiritually and academically. Belows is an excerpt from access to wisdoms translation. It's both beautiful and it speaks to your point Jundo of disassociating our minds from simple dichotomies.

he (the Buddha) has known that delight is the root of suffering & stress, that from coming-into-being there is birth, and that for what has come into being there is aging & death. Therefore, with the total ending, fading away, cessation, letting go, relinquishment of craving, the Tathagata has totally awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening, I tell you."

That is what the Blessed One said. Displeased, the monks did not delight in the Blessed One's words

[Tomás ESP]

The Buddha's path is the middle way between eternalism and annihilationism. Everything is in constant flux, everything is impermanent. There is no static, individual, separate self, nor is there anything static, individual or separate in reality itself. There isn't an eternal anything nor is anything destroyed permanently. That's my understanding.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Jundo]

The (the Buddha) has known that delight is the root of suffering & stress, that from coming-into-being there is birth, and that for what has come into being there is aging & death. Therefore, with the total ending, fading away, cessation, letting go, relinquishment of craving, the Tathagata has totally awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening, I tell you."

That is what the Blessed One said. Displeased, the monks did not delight in the Blessed One's words

Yes, the Zen folks took a further leap ... into that which neither comes nor goes, neither ends or begins ...

... yet is constant coming and going, endless ends and beginnings ...

It is considered a less superficial teaching of the Buddha for those whose heart was ready to hear it.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

The Buddha's path is the middle way between eternalism and annihilationism. Everything is in constant flux, everything is impermanent. There is no static, individual, separate self, nor is there anything static, individual or separate in reality itself. There isn't an eternal anything nor is anything destroyed permanently. That's my understanding.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

And yet, and yet, it is still and quiet somehow.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Gregor]

Is there a treeleaf opinion/viewpoint on the Shushogi? It does mention rebirth, specifically how fortunate we are to have a human birth and ability to practice the Dharma.


Personally I love it as something that encapsules the three vows, precepts, attonement for past mistakes and commitment to help others as part of our practice.

Gassho,

Gregor
ST

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