Rationale for not Eating Meat in Buddhism

[Kokuu]

Eating meat is inflammatory, eating a plant based diet results in better overall health, a reduction in cardiovascular conditions, people with type 2 diabetes can come off all medication and potential no longer have diabetes, recovery times from injuries are reduced and the list just goes on and on. This is before we mention the harm done to beings to support such mass meat eating.

Just to say, having investigated the evidence base of many kinds of diets, I actually found that research showed that eating a moderate amount of meat was not a problem and was likely beneficial for health. Having a substantially plant-based diet is good but adding fish, eggs and quality meat is also good. The problems seem to arise with simple carbs, unfermented dairy, and artificial food ingredients.

That does not affect the moral arguments but the health-based reasons for being totally vegetarian or vegan are not, in my opinion, clear cut, although this was what I was expecting to find before starting to do the research. I have seen research that shows that type 2 diabetes can be reversed using a ketogenic diet which includes a fair amount of meat consumption, and that diet likewise improves cardiovascular health. The main factors seem to be including a substantial amount of plant-based content in the diet and removing simple carbs and artificial ingredients.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Ryumon]

That does not affect the moral arguments but the health-based reasons for being totally vegetarian or vegan are not, in my opinion, clear cut, although this was what I was expecting to find before starting to do the research. I have seen research that shows that type 2 diabetes can be reversed using a ketogenic diet which includes a fair amount of meat consumption, and that diet likewise improves cardiovascular health. The main factors seem to be including a substantial amount of plant-based content in the diet and removing simple carbs and artificial ingredients.

Recent research has shown that governments around the world have made huge mistakes in telling people to eat less fat. The fat > heart disease hypothesis was totally wrong, and in creating the food pyramids, telling us to eat lots of carbs, and little fat, the health of many populations has suffered. Obesity and type 2 diabetes are the result of hormonal imbalances due to eating too much carbs, and eating more meat and fat is actually healthy. The carbohydrate-insulin model of obesity, while not definitive, shows that what we have been told about healthy eating since the 1970s (in the US at least) has been dangerously wrong:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6082688/

Just as an anecdote: I went more or less vegetarian a few years ago, after having eaten vegetarian and even macrobiotic at different times of my life. This meant I was eating a lot more carbs - especially making bread - and early this year, I started a low-carb, higher protein and fat diet, and lost 6 kg in several months. I've introduced more carbs, but my weight is still slowly burning off.

No matter, more vegetables are certainly better no matter what, but in order to get enough energy, you'll be eating carb-rich vegetables, such as grains and root vegetables.

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

[Jundo]

Of course, we cannot give medical advice here, so take all comments on dietary effect with a grain of salt.

(Actually, I will advise you to cut back on the salt)

Gassho, J

STLah

[Ryumon]

Of course, we cannot give medical advice here, so take all comments on dietary effect with a grain of salt.

(Actually, I will advise you to cut back on the salt)

Even that has been contested lately... I've read up on nutritional stuff in the past few years, and much of the bedrock of the research is based on very limited and often flawed studies, that have become gospel.

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

[Risho]

Well I play a doctor on the internet, so I offer free medical advice all the time.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Doshin]

Welcome Seth, I see you recently joined.

For a first time post you generated a lot of responses. That is a good thing because we all learn. I think the discussion diverged from your question so I will offer some thoughts that don’t address your question either


I have read this thread with attention and interest. I am an omnivore, it has been tough for me to shake 250,000 years of my family’s evolutionary/ecological history as hunter gathers. But I am working towards reducing meat consumption and trying to only obtain meat from ethical and environmental good sources. Times have changed and the human population has grown dramatically the last century and consequentially wildlife has declined dramatically. Therefore old ways of our evolutionary history as hunter and gathers have changed for most.. Another topic with many dimensions and lots of discussion can be had.

I spent 35 years as a wildlife conservationist in agricultural systems throughout the US and my task was to prevent and minimize the destruction of wildlife from agriculture and when possible take lands out of crop production and restore the ecosystem that was there before it was destroyed to plant crops. Conversion of native ecosystems to cropland is a major contributor to the loss of biodiversity. My point from that is whether we are vegetarian, vegan or eat meat that animals will die. This experience has influenced my perspective. So I do listen to others and try to learn.

JD I also commend your approach to farming which reduces impacts to biodiversity. I have and am supportive of similar approaches.

I have little to add about the moral argument presented on either side of this issue but respect the choice of each person as they address the complexity of the issues and what this specific precept means in their life. I will not add mine here but good for me to listen to others.

JD I have contemplated what you said about intention. I think I understand your point but it does not settle well in “my life” because I know what it takes to grow crops so the issue is too close to me.

With that said I commend those who choose a vegetarian lifestyle and believe all of us must consume less meat for environmental reasons. Those concerns range from climate change to extensive conversion of native ecosystems and loss of biodiversity to produce meat. When I taught ecology decades ago I said that it took 10 lbs of corn to produce one pound of beef. Now that calculation may be outdated and I did not research it before posting. My point is that we could feed more people with the corn than the beef so we would need to covert less land to cropland.

I have always appreciated Treeleaf’s approach to discussing the precepts each year. There is much to ponder here.

With respect to all opinions though mine may differ

Doshin
St

[Doshin]

PS. Sorry for long post. I could have gone on and on but remembered I was suppose to be brief oops

Doshin
St

[Jishin]

Like all precepts, I think this boils down to creating a life style that reduces possible internal/external conflicts to make our way smoother.

Eating meat is inflammatory, eating a plant based diet results in better overall health, a reduction in cardiovascular conditions, people with type 2 diabetes can come off all medication and potential no longer have diabetes, recovery times from injuries are reduced and the list just goes on and on. This is before we mention the harm done to beings to support such mass meat eating.

People in the past lived very different lives to the lives we live today and they had much less access to information than we do. I truly believe people today choose to willingly live in ignorance about their diet, which they could change. Change seems to be difficult for many people, lots of attachments to things they identify with. I myself lived in ignorance for a very long time, it's easy and it's often how the people around us live so its comfortable. However, there reached a point for me, as a result of ease of access to information, where I couldn't not stop and look at my diet.

It was really difficult at first. How do you change such a core part of your life, your eating habits, when you only know a singular way. I grew up in a relatively poor and uncultured household. We ate very basic and affordable typical meals of the region, all of which involved meat. I'd never experienced purely vegetable cooking until I was an adult. That lack of exposure results in ignorance, no awareness also meant I couldn't grown a budding interesting. How can I be interested in something I don't know existed. While I could have imagined why would I imagine such a thing? Something so counter to how I lived my life. Only once conditions aligned and I finally had both awareness and opportunity did I begin to learn about the negative sides to eating meat, not to mention just the idea that there are negative sides to it. I still see the macho vibe of "men eat meat" all around me, a mirror of Santa Clause wearing red and evidence that marketing is truly scary. House wives tales litter our cultural landscapes and influence our beliefs.

I cannot turn back now. I do what I can to the best of my ability. As time passes it's easier and easier. I now know a ton of veggie only meals, quick ones and fancy ones. My day to day life is now on a new normal. This is what all the precepts are to me. Making it so my daily life is smooth, that there is nothing at the back of my mind whispering away.

Its up to all of us to find our own life balance.

I have a friend who has a medical condition where he can't digest anything, he has a very limited life span. He wont live more than, christ it's scary to think but maybe 5 years. He eats organs, liver and such because they're very dense in nutrients. He throws up very often, so eating has become very un fun to him. He eats meat, it is the right thing for him to do. His situation and my situation are different. I don't think it's right for me to eat meat. I think this is the point of not grasping. Don't grasp so that it become one size fits all. Look at each situation and judge.

Gassho
Mark
ST

Baloney.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Shinshi]

Baloney.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

I like Baloney. Particularly with mustard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iG6Hrh4v08

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Jishin]

Baloney is keto friendly. Good for you.



Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jishin]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lab-grown-meat/

https://apple.news/AAt1lv95WShO4ApP3Xp4K-w

מאמרים מעניינים

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jundo]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ab-grown-meat/

https://apple.news/AAt1lv95WShO4ApP3Xp4K-w

מאמרים מעניינים

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

I can't see the apple news article because it needs an app, but I 100% support the meat substitute route. It is in my new book on Zen in the Future, "BUILDING the FUTURE BUDDHA!"

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

I can't see the apple news article because it needs an app, but I 100% support the meat substitute route. It is in my new book on Zen in the Future, "BUILDING the FUTURE BUDDHA!"

Gassho, J

STLah

That's what the Apple article is about. Meat grown in a lab. Very expensive to do initially but it should be a doable thing (commercially) in the future. Very exciting I think.



Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Bion]

I can't see the apple news article because it needs an app, but I 100% support the meat substitute route. It is in my new book on Zen in the Future, "BUILDING the FUTURE BUDDHA!"

Gassho, J

STLah

ALL FOR SUBSTITUTES AS WELL! Burgers without the dead bodies?!!? Yes please!

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Jundo]

That's what the Apple article is about. Meat grown in a lab. Very expensive to do initially but it should be a doable thing (commercially) in the future. Very exciting I think.



Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

The only ethical question is whether, from a Buddhist point of view, pretending to violate a Precept is the same as violating a Precept. It is something like the debate whether playing a video game with violence and killing people is, in some sense, violating the Precept against violence and killing people. (I sometimes say that, in any case, the game is much MUCH better than actually killing people!! )

Also, it is actually an old thing in Buddhist cooking: If you go to a monastery in China or Japan, or a "Buddhist vegetarian" restaurant in Chinatown or the like, you will find many many dishes where they do an amazing imitation chicken, pork or beef with mushrooms, tofu and such. Sometimes, it is really hard to tell the difference. So, it is not so new.

Here is a whole history and some recipes ...

https://www.foodandwine.com/cooking-techniques/plant-based-meat-china-taiwan-buddhist-vegetarian

https://www.thebuddhistchef.com/recipe/vegan-fried-chicken/

This was all the topic of Kirk and my podcast this week, by the way ...

'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' ... Episode 60 ... Animals

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?19162-The-ZEN-of-EVERYTHING%21-Podcast-Episode-60-Animals&p=292664#post292664

Gassho, J

STLah