Rationale for not Eating Meat in Buddhism

[Seth]

To preface this question, I know some schools vary on the ethics behind eating meat or derivatives of animals. Regardless, for those traditions that do prohibit eating meat, what is the rationale behind this rule? For example, are the rules in place to ensure a practitioner retains a certain state of mind at all times (i.e., loving-kindness/compassion)? Or is it tied to karma/kamma? What is Zen Buddhism's take on this?

Thank you.

[Jishin]

Hi Seth,

I would bite a live calf and then bite a live plant and then compare results.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Seth]

Hi Seth,

I would bite a live calf and then bite a live plant and then compare results.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

A vivid and powerful answer. Thank you!

[Jishin]

[Ryumon]

Coincidentally, this is going to be the topic of the next episode of The Zen of Everything podcast. (Well, the topic is “animals,” and eating meat will be discussed.)

https://www.zen-of-everything.com/

Gassho,
Ryūmon
Sat

[Kokuu]

To preface this question, I know some schools vary on the ethics behind eating meat or derivatives of animals. Regardless, for those traditions that do prohibit eating meat, what is the rationale behind this rule?

Hi Seth

Essentially, the Zen take on this is mostly that whether you eat meat is a matter of personal choice, depending on your circumstances, health and a number of other factors. Buddhism, including Zen, includes the precept of refraining from taking life and some people think that this explicitly rules out eating meat. However, even farming fruit and vegetables usually relies on using pesticides which kill insects and using land that would be the home to other animals.

In terms of Buddhist codes, early Buddhism, and the Buddha himself, set no hard and fast rules on this. However, the early sangha, as with many modern Theravadin monks begged for food so would not refuse to eat whatever they were given whether it contained meat or not.

The Buddha's own rule was that "If a bhikkhu sees, hears or suspects that it has been killed for him, he may not eat it." Deliberately killing or having an animal killed was something that required confession. There were no rules given for Buddhist laypeople, only monks and nuns. When his cousin Devadatta proposed that the sangha should be 100% vegetarian the Buddha opposed this.

The Laṅkāvatāra Sutra contains express teachings against eating meat and is often quoted by people but this is thought to have been written in the fourth century CE with the final chapters, which contain the parts about not eating meat, added even later than that. The reasons given also can appear to be quite non-Buddhist so may have come from Taoist or other sources such as saying that eating meat will interfere with "holding a magical formula, or the perfecting of magical knowledge."

In essence, there is nothing in Buddhist teachings that explicitly say we should not eat meat, however there may well be good ethical and moral reasons for adopting a vegetarian diet as part of your own practice and some Buddhist traditions seem to have thought this. Here at Treeleaf we see it is for each person to decide for themselves based on their understanding of the precepts. However, one thing we do ask is that no one judges the choices of anyone else or thinks that it makes someone less Buddhist, less Zen or less compassionate because of their diet.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Jundo]

Hi Seth,

Kokuu well summarizes the history and my feelings here. Below I will reprint some sections on this from the Lankavatara Sutra, and you can see how it was presented there, later the basis for what developed in Chinese Buddhism, different from Indian and South Asian Buddhism where meat consumption is allowed today (vegetarianism is no longer the rule in Japanese, nor is it in Tibetan Buddhism, although some feel that it should be, and some practice so as a personal choice.) The entire Sutra is from long after the time of the Buddha, written during the Common Era, and some scholars believe that the meat eating section is an even later addition.

I believe that the strongest arguments now against meat eating are in the treatment of animals in industrial farming and the impact on the environment. As to the former, I personally believe that animals, in wild environments, live in cruel settings of survival of the fittest, in constant fear and pursuit, and that they do not think about death in the same way that humans do (with our vivid imaginings of the future, for animals are more in the moment.) I have seen films presenting the treatment of animals in industrial farms, and I believe that we can do better. We should start to move away from eating animals, and I hope that meat substitutes will become more common in the next few years. My family limits meat consumption, but we do eat some meat, fowl and much fish.

Personally, I do not believe that the reasons stated in the Lankavatara are coherent:

The Blessed One said, ‘There are countless reasons, Mahāmati, why it is not appropriate for a compassionate bodhisattva to eat any kind of meat. I will explain them to you. In this world, Mahāmati, in the long course of saṃsāra, there is no living being who has obtained a physical form who has not been your mother, father, brother, sister, son, daughter, or had some other kind of family relationship to you. These beings are reborn in another state of existence, born from a womb as a wild animal, as livestock, or as a bird, or they are born as someone with whom you have a family relationship. How, then, can it be appropriate for a bodhisattva, a great being, to eat the meat of any kind of being, creature, or living thing whatsoever, when he wants to relate to all living beings as if they were part of himself, and wants to practise the Buddha-Dharma? Mahāmati, even rākṣasas become protectors, develop compassion, and give up eating meat when they hear the excellent nature of the Dharma of the tathāgatas. Certainly then, people who yearn for the Dharma will do the same. Therefore, Mahāmati, it is not appropriate for any living beings anywhere in the cycle of rebirths who have any notion of family relationships to eat any kind of meat. This is so that they might cultivate a perception of all living beings as being like their only child. It is not appropriate for a compassionate bodhisattva to eat any kind of meat. Even in exceptional circumstances, Mahāmati, it is not appropriate for a bodhisattva who is engaged in spiritual practice to eat any kind of meat. Meat from dogs, asses, buffalo, horses, oxen, human beings, and so forth are kinds of meat that are not eaten by ordinary people, but they are sold as suitable to eat by shepherds at the side of the road in order to make money. Therefore, Mahāmati, it is not appropriate for a bodhisattva to eat meat from anywhere at all.

‘It is not appropriate, Mahāmati, for a bodhisattva who loves purity to eat meat that comes from the union of semen and blood. It is not appropriate, Mahāmati, for a bodhisattva whose spiritual practice is to strive to develop love to eat meat, as this will cause living beings to shake in fear. For example, Mahāmati, when a dog sees a ḍomba, an outcaste, or a fisherman who desires to eat flesh – even from a distance – he will be gripped by fear and think, “These are accomplished killers. They will kill me too.” In the same way, Mahāmati, when other minute creatures of the air, the earth, or the water see a meat-eater – even from a distance – will, with their keen sense of smell, detect the scent of the rākṣasa, and quickly flee from such people, who may bring death. Therefore, Mahāmati, it is not appropriate for a bodhisattva whose spiritual practice is to dwell with great love to eat meat, because this will cause living beings to shake in fear. It is not appropriate, Mahāmati, for a bodhisattva to eat meat – which stinks and which is pleasing to ignoble people – because eating meat gives one a bad reputation, and because noble people abstain from it. Noble people, Mahāmati, do not offer bloody meat when they make offerings of food to the sages, and so it is certainly not appropriate for a bodhisattva to eat meat.

‘In order to protect the minds of a great many people, Mahāmati, it is not appropriate for a compassionate bodhisattva who wants to avoid the Buddha’s teaching being spoken ill of to eat meat. For example, Mahāmati, there are people in this world who speak ill of the Buddha’s teaching, saying “Why do these people who are supposedly living the life of a renunciant or a brahmin reject the food of the sages of old, and eat flesh like carnivorous animals with full bellies, terrifying minute creatures of the air, the earth, and the water, bringing terror to all about them as they wander through this world? These people destroy the renunciant life, they obliterate the brahmin life. There is neither Dharma nor discipline in them.” There are many kinds of people with a hostile attitude who speak ill of the Buddha’s teaching in this way. Therefore, Mahāmati, in order to protect the minds of a great many people, it is not appropriate for a compassionate bodhisattva who wants to avoid the Buddha’s teaching being spoken ill of to eat any kind of meat.

‘The stench of a dead body is universally considered to be disgusting. Therefore, Mahāmati, it is not appropriate for a bodhisattva to eat meat. When flesh is being burned, Mahāmati, whether it is the flesh of a dead person or of another kind of living being, there is no difference in the smell. Both kinds of flesh give off the same stench. Therefore, Mahāmati, it is not appropriate for a bodhisattva whose spiritual practice is to develop a love of purity to eat any kind of meat.

‘When sons and daughters of good family, Mahāmati, who have committed themselves to the Mahāyāna, spiritual practitioners engaged in spiritual practice, who dwell with love, who know incantations and wish to perform them, go forth to cremation grounds, to the forest wilderness, to far-off places, to places inhabited by demons, to a hut or some other place to meditate, they are hindered in accomplishing incantations and in attaining liberation. Thus, Mahāmati, seeing that it creates obstacles to all kinds of spiritual practice and accomplishment, it is not appropriate for a bodhisattva who desires to bring benefit to themselves and others to eat any kind of meat. Because perceiving physical forms brings about the desire to taste them, it is not appropriate for a compassionate bodhisattva who regards all beings as himself to eat any kind of meat. Reflecting that even the gods shun it, Mahāmati, it is not appropriate for a compassionate bodhisattva to eat any kind of meat. Reflecting that his mouth will emit the most terrible stench as long as he lives, Mahāmati, it is not appropriate for a compassionate bodhisattva to eat any kind of meat.

‘He sleeps uneasily, and he uneasy when he awakes. He has terrifying, hair-raising dreams filled with evil. Alone in an empty house, his dwelling is lonely, and demons seize his spirit. He may be struck by terror and begin to tremble at any time, for no reason. He does not know how much to eat. When he eats and drinks, he neither tastes properly, digests properly, nor feels properly satisfied. His intestines are filled with a great many worms and things which cause leprosy. He no longer even minds suffering frequently from disease. When I have taught my disciples to regard food as if it were the flesh of their own child, or as medicine, how can I approve of bloody meat as food for my disciples – meat which ignoble people serve and noble people abstain from, which is the cause of so many faults such as those I have described and removes so many virtues, which was not offered as food to the sages, and which is improper?

https://www.sraddhapa.com/lankavatara

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jundo]

Hi Seth,

I would bite a live calf and then bite a live plant and then compare results.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Do you feed your dogs only vegetables? I am curious.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jishin]

Do you feed your dogs only vegetables? I am curious.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

I feed them dog food but also leftovers. Leftovers include vegetables but they specially like the meat.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Ryumon]

This bit is a bit ridiculous; it's the ultimate slippery slope argument.

‘It is not appropriate, Mahāmati, for a bodhisattva who loves purity to eat meat that comes from the union of semen and blood. It is not appropriate, Mahāmati, for a bodhisattva whose spiritual practice is to strive to develop love to eat meat, as this will cause living beings to shake in fear. For example, Mahāmati, when a dog sees a ḍomba, an outcaste, or a fisherman who desires to eat flesh – even from a distance – he will be gripped by fear and think, “These are accomplished killers. They will kill me too.”

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

[Seth]

Thank you for sharing your stance and the Lankavatara Sutra, Jundo. This appears to be one of those topics where one has to determine for themselves their own path in this regard.

Also, thank you, Kokuu, for the history lesson. It appears this is an area of Buddhism ripe with some ambiguity and debate.

[Yamabushi]

Buddhism is full of ambiguity. "Do not kill" is a precept. By taking a breath I kill untold number of microbes. I wash my hands I kill bacteria.

Recognize the harm we do just to be alive. Show the utmost appreciation for all life. Untold labors went into preparing our food.

May our practice and virtue be worthy to receive it.

[Shoki]

I kill living beings when I cut my grass and smash insects against my windshield when I drive my car. I kill microscopic organisms if I take certain medicines. If I find a bug crawling around in my house I will capture it alive and put it outside. ???

Gassho
STlah
Shoki

[Risho]

However, one thing we do ask is that no one judges the choices of anyone else or thinks that it makes someone less Buddhist, less Zen or less compassionate because of their diet.

That's no fun! hahahah

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Kyonin]

Hi guys,

This is a recurrent topic all over the Buddhist world. Kokuu and Jundo put it very elegant, so I'll just add this:

Life feeds on life. Even if you eat lettuce, it's a living being. What makes the difference, I think, it's that one follows the middle way and do not fall into excess. If you eat what you don't need and just do it out of gluttony, then you'd be taking lives that we shouldn't be taking.

But I'm sure I'm totally wrong ��

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH