Respecting different beliefs? Even in ghosts?

[Jundo]

Hey Van,

I apologize if this has been said on the thread already but here are my two cents worth:

I often approach this as a practice in itself. Our ego-mind separates, distinguishes, classifies, labels, vilifies, blames, separates etc. So, adopting the 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind approach' I make a conscious effort to observe any aversion or uncomfortable, judgmental feelings that start to manifest when listening to people I disagree with.

To that end, I very quickly recognize that it has nothing to do with them and everything to do with ME. MY idea of the world, MY ideas, MY presuppositions. And at the end of the day, if YOU (or the other) do not fit into MY mold of the world then you are separate.

Ahhhhhhhh how delusional of me, 'I' am the only one creating the arbitrary separateness to begin with...... this is a really joyous realization that can help us move in the world way better. From there is Great Mind all the way.

Once there, I listen with my HEART with Empathy and compassion and they become my teacher, my brother, sister, etc. and we are SO much more the same than different.

I have actively practice this for years and learned to see past the ideas into the person. Then, intimacy and understanding is born. I think we have to practice this off and on the Zafu! Of course, still a work in progress.

That's just my thoughts brother, take it with a grain of salt

Gassho,

Ippo

SatLah

Yes, but, one can also criticize what one sincerely believes to be superstitious beliefs, especially if they are having deleterious effects on someone one knows or on a family or group. There are times to speak up!

If Van bites his tongue and does not speak out in this case, in my belief, the main reason is simply to preserve a harmonious relationship with his wife and mother-in-law. He can smile and keep grandma happy, but still say to himself that, while there are mysteries in this world, he sincerely believes that such beliefs in ghosts and demons are baloney. Furthermore, there may be times when things become so oppressive (can't say, however, exactly when that is) that one should tell grandma directly that one thinks, as one's personal view, that it is baloney.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

A good friend of mine once gave me incredible advice. If you want to get your point across you need to 1) know your audience and 2) only use words they understand.

science can't get the point across if the audience lacks the vocabulary and perspective to understand what's being explained, even if the science is correct. likewise, many people who consider themselves rational and scientific often get confused by religious and mythical language that appears to conflict with the limits of a rational worldview. some superstitious beliefs may be harmful. but sometimes they are fulfilling a function to get a point across. listen deeply and learn to separate what is trivial and what is essential. we all believe things that aren't true. sometimes our mistakes will be revealed to us in this lifetime. sometimes we take our errors to the grave. this applies to ALL OF US, no matter how smart we think we are.

if it gets the point across and isn't harmful, go beyond the words being spoken and get to the root of what is actually being said. do we want to be correct or do we want to get the message across?

gassho

sat today

Faced this with some vaccine resistant friends recently. Hard to find the right words or gestures to get the point across.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Nobodyhere]

Hi Jundo/Sangha,

I have a question about respecting different beliefs. I appreciate the notion of different strokes for different folks and different ways up the same mountain. However, my wife, mother-in-law, and her best friends (etc...)are big believers in ghosts, spirits, demons, gods, and superstition. A friend of my wife recently slept at another friend's place and said there were lots of spirits in her house and she needed to do a special ritual. As a man of science, I think this is utter rubbish, but sadly, my wife did believe this story. I try not to get myself involved in their discussions, but it's actually quite challenging if it's your wife. Every so often, I'll try to nudge my wife to ignore the superstition and live in the present moment. I would explain that in zazen, we don't try to find the answers to metaphysical questions, but we lose the questions entirely. The Way is actually simple if there is no picking or choosing. She does not find these answers helpful.

How do you skillfully deal with this situation? Do you ignore them and not engage unless they ask you? I actually find this very difficult to deal with. Perhaps, I'm just very stubborn.

Gassho,
Van
SAT+LAH

Hi Van, Your wife is a continuously changeable complex entity just like yourself. You can exercise patience and loving kindness in these situations whilst knowing that each being live within their own universe with their unique perspectives. Humbly consider that none of us have access to ultimate reality whether we embrace a more modern skeptical outlook so flamboyantly embraced in the west or choose a different perspective altogether. Living in the moment means accepting and loving her as she is with all your heart while being patient and supportive. It's a certainty both of you will die, nobody knows when. Our lives take less then the blink of an eye in the cycle of it all. So let it all go / instant Zazen time . Our opinions matter next to nothing, our love and compassion transcend words and cultural paradigms. (Personal experience, multiculturally married to a very different person twelve years now ). I apologize for going over the three sentences, I wish I was wise enough to be briefer.

Gassho
Silviu
SatToday.

[vanbui]

Hey Van,

I apologize if this has been said on the thread already but here are my two cents worth:

I often approach this as a practice in itself. Our ego-mind separates, distinguishes, classifies, labels, vilifies, blames, separates etc. So, adopting the 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind approach' I make a conscious effort to observe any aversion or uncomfortable, judgmental feelings that start to manifest when listening to people I disagree with.

To that end, I very quickly recognize that it has nothing to do with them and everything to do with ME. MY idea of the world, MY ideas, MY presuppositions. And at the end of the day, if YOU (or the other) do not fit into MY mold of the world then you are separate.

Ahhhhhhhh how delusional of me, 'I' am the only one creating the arbitrary separateness to begin with...... this is a really joyous realization that can help us move in the world way better. From there is Great Mind all the way.

Once there, I listen with my HEART with Empathy and compassion and they become my teacher, my brother, sister, etc. and we are SO much more the same than different.

I have actively practice this for years and learned to see past the ideas into the person. Then, intimacy and understanding is born. I think we have to practice this off and on the Zafu! Of course, still a work in progress.

That's just my thoughts brother, take it with a grain of salt

Gassho,

Ippo

SatLah

Hi,

Thank you, Ippo, for your insightful opinion on our ego-mind, and I agree with you that this is an excellent opportunity for practice. I'm not a confrontational person, and I often avoid getting into an argument about religion and belief. I know I have a firm belief in the Zen path. I like what Bion said earlier in the thread; unless specifically asked to do so, why express an opinion that might cause someone else sadness or anger? I often just listen and rarely offer an opinion unless specifically asked for one. The main reason why I felt uncomfortable with this situation was because of my dear wife. I suppose I wanted her to be less superstitious and her beliefs in the absolute mumbo jumbo, in my view, caused me some unease. Again, I agree this is more to do with me than with my wife. Jundo is absolutely correct in his observation that I prefer preserving a harmonious relationship with my wife and mother-in-law than getting into a pointless argument. My mother-in-law has an unshakeable belief in the supernatural, and I believe it's easier to move mountains than to challenge her beliefs! However, I wouldn't shy away from challenging a harmful or dangerous belief that could cause harm to someone else. Sorry to run long.

Gassho,
Van
SAT+LAH

[Byrne]

Faced this with some vaccine resistant friends recently. Hard to find the right words or gestures to get the point across.

Gassho, J

STLah

Last year I was wearing a mask at the laundromat in the mountain town I’ve been living in since Covid hit. A biker couple who weren’t wearing masks started making all kinds of obnoxious comments about how much they hated masks. Clearly trying to start something. So I said, “Yeah but you know what’s scarier than Covid? Facial recognition software! I love the masks. Makes me
Feel protected from being spied on.” They were quite charmed by my point. I mean it’s about protection. Does that count as Upaya?

Gassho

Sat Today

[Jundo]

Last year I was wearing a mask at the laundromat in the mountain town I’ve been living in since Covid hit. A biker couple who weren’t wearing masks started making all kinds of obnoxious comments about how much they hated masks. Clearly trying to start something. So I said, “Yeah but you know what’s scarier than Covid? Facial recognition software! I love the masks. Makes me
Feel protected from being spied on.” They were quite charmed by my point. I mean it’s about protection. Does that count as Upaya?

Gassho

Sat Today

[Kaisui]

I have watched my mind dismiss things that were happening right in front of me, and I've watched it completely accept things as true that were flimsy at best. How can I trust this mind to discern what's true and what's untrue, what beliefs are valid and which are invalid? Of course there are practical limits: I'm probably not going to join every religion "just in case", but when it comes to others' beliefs I'm not really interested in accepting or rejecting them (generally speaking). I'm doing my own thing and that's largely where my attention is focused. Other people will do their own thing regardless of my approval, so why waste my energy?

Gassho,
Kyōsen
Sat|LaH

This resonated for me, thank you. All except the last sentence. If other people are us and we are them, then energy spent interacting is not wasted... it does not need to be a competition of wills/ideas.

Gassho,
Charity
sat/lah

[Bion]

Respecting different beliefs? Even in ghosts?

This resonated for me, thank you. All except the last sentence. If other people are us and we are them, then energy spent interacting is not wasted... it does not need to be a competition of wills/ideas.

Gassho,
Charity
sat/lah

Sometimes, it is actually wiser to save that energy, especially when using it can lead to arguments, heated discussions, resentment or frustration. There are those times we clearly see the person talking to us has their mind set and they are not talking to us or listening to us, they are simply waiting for us to finish so they can say whatever they already had prepared, with no regard for our opinions. Even the Dhamapada says there are those times it’s best to stay away - in a loving and compassionate way, of course - from mindless people, as they can be a trigger to us and us to them. [emoji1]

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Kaisui]

Sometimes, it is actually wiser to save that energy, especially when using it can lead to arguments, heated discussions, resentment or frustration. There are those times we clearly see the person talking to us has their mind set and they are not talking to us or listening to us, they are simply waiting for us to finish so they can say whatever they already had prepared, with no regard for our opinions. Even the Dhamapada says there are those times it’s best to stay away - in a loving and compassionate way, of course - from mindless people, as they can be a trigger to us and us to them. [emoji1]

[emoji1374] SatToday

Ahh.. Thank you, Bion. I think you have unwrapped for me the part I had not understood.


sat/lah

[Gareth]

Ancient Zen practitioners fully solved the problem of the spirits a long time ago after thousands of years of struggle... That is the direction I think I would go personally. Technically I think it is it is true?

Gassho,
Gareth

Sat today, attempted Lah

[Kokuu]

Ancient Zen practitioners fully solved the problem of the spirits a long time ago after thousands of years of struggle... That is the direction I think I would go personally. Technically I think it is it is true?

Could you explain a little more, please?

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Stewart]

My late Korean / Japanese grandma in-law used to say that Japanese ghosts would never both me because 1) I was a Christian (I must be as ALL white people are) 2) Japanese ghosts can't speak English, so would ignore me.

Stewart
Sat

[Jundo]

... 2) Japanese ghosts can't speak English, so would ignore me.

Be careful, they can use Google translate now.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Gareth]

If spirits are not real, and only seem real, then perhaps they are a product of the mind, e.g. our fears and ruminations?

Gassho,
Gareth

Sat today

Edit: was meant as a reply to Kokuu

[Bion]

If spirits are not real, and only seem real, then perhaps they are a product of the mind, e.g. our fears and ruminations?

Gassho,
Gareth

Sat today

Edit: was meant as a reply to Kokuu

What in our individual realities isn’t a product of the mind? [emoji3526]

[emoji1374] SatToday