Zazen and anxiety : should i keep on practicing ?

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  • Tom A.
    Member
    • May 2020
    • 255

    #16
    I take the words of the ‘Hsin Hsin Ming’ of Seng Ts’an, the third Chinese patriarch of Zen to heart whenever I feel an emotion I don’t “like” such as anxiety: “To set up what you like against what you dislike [and vice versa] is the disease of the mind.”

    In Jundo’s second beginner’s talk he talks about mirror mind, letting everything become reflected and pass. I believe that is what is happening when the mind calms down: it no longer stacks up “what if’s” or “should be’s” and wishful thinking against uncomfortable thoughts and emotions that arise.

    It is like a mirror but also like watching a chess match: there are the black and white pieces, you ARE cheering for one side but since you are not playing in the game, then you are not so invested. I also believe everyone is wiser than they think and already know these things, if not on an intellectual level.

    This short video might be illuminating and helpful (it was for me):



    A few more than three, I apologize.

    PS One more thing I’d like to add is, I’m not an expert in anything, contact a doctor. (I really both like and don’t like legalese like that because we don’t show enough reverence for experts, AND we sometimes put too much faith in them and not enough accountability in ourselves, to paraphrase a quote I’ve heard: “If you don’t have faith in yourself, not even the Buddha can help you.”) It may be helpful to think of one of the benifits (although we don’t practice for benefits) of Zazen to be like exposure therapy, the most empirically testable form of therapy:



    Gassho,
    Tom

    Sat/Lah
    Last edited by Tom A.; 03-27-2021, 01:16 AM.
    “Do what’s hard to do when it is the right thing to do.”- Robert Sopalsky

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    • GrasshopperMan17
      Member
      • Jan 2021
      • 69

      #17
      Uggy, im very happy to hear that todays sit went well ive found that much of the practice is about this letting go that you described. there is definitely a sense of peace in doing so. many bows and blessings to you. sorry for going slightly over the 3 sentences.

      Gassho, John
      ST/LAH

      Comment

      • Jakuden
        Member
        • Jun 2015
        • 6134

        #18
        Originally posted by StoBird
        I take the words of the ‘Hsin Hsin Ming’ of Seng Ts’an, the third Chinese patriarch of Zen to heart whenever I feel an emotion I don’t “like” such as anxiety: “To set up what you like against what you dislike [and vice versa] is the disease of the mind.”

        In Jundo’s second beginner’s talk he talks about mirror mind, letting everything become reflected and pass. I believe that is what is happening when the mind calms down: it no longer stacks up “what if’s” or “should be’s” and wishful thinking against uncomfortable thoughts and emotions that arise.

        It is like a mirror but also like watching a chess match: there are the black and white pieces, you ARE cheering for one side but since you are not playing in the game, then you are not so invested. I also believe everyone is wiser than they think and already know these things, if not on an intellectual level.

        This short video might be illuminating and helpful (it was for me):



        A few more than three, I apologize.

        PS One more thing I’d like to add is, I’m not an expert in anything, contact a doctor. (I really both like and don’t like legalese like that because we don’t show enough reverence for experts, AND we sometimes put too much faith in them and not enough accountability in ourselves, to paraphrase a quote I’ve heard: “If you don’t have faith in yourself, not even the Buddha can help you.”) It may be helpful to think of one of the benifits (although we don’t practice for benefits) of Zazen to be like exposure therapy, the most empirically testable form of therapy:



        Gassho,
        Tom

        Sat/Lah
        I love this video!! Arrr, Demons be below!

        There can be one very real, tangible, immediate benefit of sitting with anxiety (Even though we don't sit to gain anything!) I don't know why it has taken this long for it to really sink in, because this Sangha is such a big part of my life, but... the more I am in a really vulnerable, or sometimes even downright painful mental place, the more I feel deeply connected to the rest of humanity and all our existential nakedness. We all have those demons but walk around pretending we don't! So Uggy, I am sorry you sit with anxiety, and everyone else that does here too, but at least we are sitting completely together with the worries, fears, what-if's. So while you are sitting please remember we all care about you, are sitting with you, and are here for you as fellow demon-wrangler ship captains.

        Gassho,
        Jakuden
        SatToday/LAH

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        • Kevin M
          Member
          • Dec 2018
          • 190

          #19
          Originally posted by Jakuden
          ... I am sorry you sit with anxiety, and everyone else that does here too, but at least we are sitting completely together with the worries, fears, what-if's. So while you are sitting please remember we all care about you, are sitting with you, and are here for you as fellow demon-wrangler ship captains.


          Kevin
          STLaH

          Comment

          • Risho
            Member
            • May 2010
            • 3177

            #20
            Email: risho.treeleaf@gmail.com

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            • Risho
              Member
              • May 2010
              • 3177

              #21
              Jundo has a great teaching on Gratitude. I can’t find the link; if anyone can post it I’d like to read it again.

              Also Checkout this latest podcast on gratitude: https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/...9-8dbc75743c5b

              The reason I thought of gratitude is that it is good medicine for me when I’m down, anxious etc; also I am not a dr, I only play one on the internet lol

              I think the bodhisattva path takes courage; normally we come into things to get something; I specifically came into Zen practice to get away from problems. But real practice happens (and none of this is my original thought lol) when we drop the likes and dislikes (as Tom pointed out). When something comes up that I like I’m grateful, but when something comes up I don’t like also be grateful.

              I think that’s why in the Heart Sutra it says Bodhisattvas are fearless because we turn into it; if we do not face our dislikes we are missing out on the majority of our life, and often times what we don’t like absolutely transforms us when we drop our resistance. But it’s more: a bodhisattva not only takes a generally harder path by experiencing discomfort intentionally (eg giving things up in ango) but works to help other people too. The bodhisattva is the opposite of someone who shuts out the world when they have had too much; a bodhisattva never quits.

              In Jundo’s talk in this past zazenkai he talks about how the universe has this openness or light shining through, but we only notice it when we drop our notion of open and closed or on and off. Think about wverything that had to hapoen for me to be here or you to be here; it’s amazing. I think zazen lets us learn how to let the universe in, and we realize this real fundamental goodness of it all.

              Jukai is sort of like wedding vows. To me when I vow it binds me to that thing so that I know in my heart of hearts I have a responsibikity to fulfill it. Vow has a powerful resonance to humans which is why it is important. I think leaving practice for a while (which I have done) is a necessary part of it all, and having that vow, that seed planted; it’s like a beacon that always calls you home.

              I’m not saying you should stop practice; in the end you can’t hahaha I mean like Jundo said you have to decide.

              So my point is that if this is important to you, you sonetimes have to face and be completely with whst makes you uncomfortable; just know that you are not alone as Jakuden said; we are all in this together.

              gassho

              risho
              -stlah

              apologies for going over and typos(I am on my phone lol)
              Last edited by Risho; 03-27-2021, 04:01 PM.
              Email: risho.treeleaf@gmail.com

              Comment

              • Jundo
                Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                • Apr 2006
                • 42495

                #22
                Originally posted by Risho
                Jundo has a great teaching on Gratitude. I can’t find the link; if anyone can post it I’d like to read it again.
                I am grateful that this resonates with you. Is it the one?

                gratitude & Great Gratitude
                This "Buddha quote", however nice it sounds, is not something the Buddha likely said at all (turns out to be from the cheery 70's writer on love, Leo Buscaglia (http://www.fakebuddhaquotes.com/fake-buddha-quote-let-us-rise-up-and-be-thankful-for-if-we-didnt-learn-a-lot-today-at-least-we-learned-a-little/)). Oh, the


                Gassho, J

                STLah
                ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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                • Risho
                  Member
                  • May 2010
                  • 3177

                  #23
                  thats the one! thank you

                  gassho

                  rish
                  -stlah
                  Email: risho.treeleaf@gmail.com

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                  • Tairin
                    Member
                    • Feb 2016
                    • 3073

                    #24
                    Risho.


                    Tairin
                    Sat today and lah
                    泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

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                    • TheZenCyclist
                      Member
                      • Mar 2018
                      • 5

                      #25
                      I too suffer from Anxiety disorder and PTSD stemming from my years as an EMT/Firefighter. Zazen has been a challenge during the days when I have “issues”. My troubles are like a slide show when I have them, a repetition of the worst things I have been through, with many faces that emerge. When this happens sitting, or prior to sitting, I know that breath focus is the only thing that turns the slide projector off. I never make it past a 5 count (in cycles) before starting over, but usually after what seems like a few minutes I am able to stop the slides and then, eventually, the projector itself turns off. Zazen is honestly the only thing that has helped. I have been through the medications, drinking, drugs...... all they did was put a band aid on the hemorrhage, Zazen has been the surgery and the therapy for my issues. For me, this group has been the Nurse handing me, the Doctor, the tools and knowledge to perform the surgery.

                      Longer than 3, apologies.

                      Gassho,

                      Jarrad

                      Sat Today

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                      • Shokai
                        Dharma Transmitted Priest
                        • Mar 2009
                        • 6575

                        #26
                        合掌,生開
                        gassho, Shokai

                        仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

                        "Open to life in a benevolent way"

                        https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

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                        • Tai Shi
                          Member
                          • Oct 2014
                          • 3489

                          #27
                          I have bipolar disorder and anxiety disorder. I also suffer from Ankylosing Spondylitis. I was born with a gifted mind. I have developed in Poetry, other learning, but none of this did any good. Zazen does not do everything. I practice other forms and I pray and take non-narcotic drugs, and a small amount of one narcotic. I do what Marjorie, Dr Allan Funk say and I feel better. I try to do what my therapist and Jundo say and that helps. Nothing will ever do everything, but today I feel pretty good. I do my two yr 5th stp from my 12th stps today and I will be filled more and more with love as I work through stp 9. That's what really helps, the 12 steps.
                          Gassho
                          sat/ lah
                          Tai Shi
                          Last edited by Tai Shi; 04-10-2021, 03:07 PM. Reason: Way too much, cut to the chase.

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                          • Tai Shi
                            Member
                            • Oct 2014
                            • 3489

                            #28
                            Are we still writing here? I said way to much. I do what Marjorie and Dr Allan Funk say and I feel better. I try to do what others say, and today and most days I feel pretty good. Today I do step 5 ot the twelve steps and as I work steps 1 through 12 I will be filled with love. The 12 steps really help. I take my meds as I am told. Zazen helps, as do other forms. I have gotten better for 10 years as I practice Buddhism. Sorry the other stuff was way too much.
                            Gassho
                            sat/ lah
                            Tai Shi

                            Comment

                            • Matt_
                              Member
                              • Jan 2021
                              • 4

                              #29
                              Hope you are doing (relatively) well. These are one of the best tips I ever heard/read:

                              Video (2:51 min long):


                              Blog (3 parts):
                              Andy gives some guidance on how mindfulness can help you break the cycle of anxiety.


                              And as paradoxically as this may sound, anxiety itself is not bad - it is 'just' part of being human. It is only when we create a storyline around it and/or push it away that it becomes 'a problem'.


                              Warm wishes / All the best Ugrok,

                              Matt

                              Comment

                              • Ugrok
                                Member
                                • Sep 2014
                                • 323

                                #30
                                Hey guys,

                                Thanks for the messages and the advices. I'm doing "okayish"; started practicing yoga, does a ton of good, and still practicing zazen, trying to not get trapped by my fears. Back to the breathe and the posture, again and again. I also saw some important things i think. I now understand that when i hate feeling anxious, it's myself that i hate ; i spend too much time fighting ! The part of me that is anxious does not need to be hated, it needs to be treated gently and with care. I'm beginning to see that in fact i'm not very nice with my emotions and myself, and that is some stuff i need to work on.

                                Gassho,

                                Uggy,
                                Sat today

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