Zazen and anxiety : should i keep on practicing ?

[Ugrok]

Hi girls and guys !

First : disclaimer : i'm seeing a professional therapist to work on my anxiety, and i'm following her advice about medication, etc. ; therapy sometimes is hard and stirs up some strong emotions. I practiced zazen daily for the last 8 years, without too many problems (i started during a rough anxiety moment). I don't have a sangha nor a teacher near me to ask the questions to directly, so i'm doing it here.

I wonder if i should keep on practicing zazen, because sometime it is not a very good experience. What happens during zazen is that sometimes (not all the time - there are also wonderful and peaceful zazens from time to time which make me a ton of good) i begin to feel like i'm about to disappear - like i can't find where or who i am, and i'm like "OH CRAP I DONT EXIST AND I'M ABOUT TO DISAPPEAR" (haha, sounds so stupid when i write it)- and it makes me more anxious. Writing this, i realize that maybe i'm not practicing correctly : i think in zazen you are not supposed to try to look for things or to understand things but just let things do their stuff. But somehow i'm looking for peace and stability and can't find it...

As you maybe know, when you are anxious for a long period of times, it can make things feel strange, including your own sense of self (it's called derealization or depersonalization, which are not dangerous but impressive). I don't know if this is what i'm feeling and i know it's not dangerous (i felt it in the past, plus i read a lot about the subject) but it makes me more anxious to think that zazen may be increasing anxiety and derealization and depersonalisation. Classic : being anxious about being anxious...

Thing is, i don't want to quit practicing ; it's been part of my life for a long time and i would really feel like a failure if i dropped the practice... Plus i also want to face my fears head on, i feel this determination to go to the roots of it even if i shall die trying, Buddha style baby, but i don't know if it's really a good approach.

After those "difficult" sessions, i just get up and keep on with my life and nothing really bad happens, except that i'm scared of the next zazen because i feel it will be difficult again... I already dropped the time from 30 mins to 15 mins, and i tend to flee the cushion (still practicing daily, but only once a day when it was twice before this damn anxiety came back knocking at my door).

Could you please tell me if i'm in a real danger or if it's just all in my mind ? Should i continue or should i stop for a while ? I would like to continue, could you give me any tips to keep sitting without freaking out ?

Gassho and sorry for running long,

Uggy,

Sat today,
Lah

[Bion]

Uggy, when you think or “practicing” think of practicing the law or medicine, not of practice the way an athlete trains for some marathon. When you’re on the zafu you just sit, being there, seeing but not looking, hearing but not listening, feeling your body, breathing, being mindfulness itself. There is no pressure in that and nothing to achieve. If thoughts arise, let them pass, like the shadow of clouds that obscure and brighten the room during the day. Don’t “turn around” to find the cloud or try to push it away. That is, don’t engage with the thoughts, having inner discourse and elaborating them, debating them and analyzing them internally. When they pop up, you just go back to seeing, hearing, breathing and just being where you are. Breathe in, out, back straight, head straight, chin down, hands in the mudra... continue. [emoji3526]

[emoji1374] SatToday (I went over 3 sentences, sorry!!!)

[Jundo]

If it is too much, you should stop. It may not be for you. Please talk with your mental health professional and decide.

Perhaps there is some way to ease the experience, for example, greatly shortening the time even more. If not, and if your psychologist concurs, then best to stop sitting. We have discussed doing that before, however, and not pressing so hard. However, if it is still a problem, then maybe it is just not for you. Find some other path, for example, nice walks in nature, sports or the like, that do not have such negative feelings.

It is all a good path, so swimming or walking is a good swimming or walking the path too.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Ugrok]

Thing is i practiced during all those years with pleasure, most of the time ! So it's hard for me to say or hear that it might "not be for me", it helped me a lot in the past...

[Jishin]

Patient:

When I raise my arm like this it hurts.

Doctor:

Don't raise your arm like this then.


[emoji3]

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jundo]

Thing is i practiced during all those years with pleasure, most of the time ! So it's hard for me to say or hear that it might "not be for me", it helped me a lot in the past...

Then stick with it. You have to decide.

It is not meant to cause long term crisis.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Ugrok]

Well, i know it is not the cause of the crisis i'm going through, since, as i said, i practiced during years and years without it causing a crisis. It's just that since nowadays i'm anxious most of the time, well, the content of my zazen is anxious as well. My question is : should i quit the practice because it is sometimes painful, or should i persevere... I know why i practice : i want to stop suffering, that's why i started ; what i don't know is if, to end suffering, i should confront it on the cushion, or flee it. That's what is making me hesitate. And since anxiety is mostly "fear of fear", i don't know if i can take a rational decision, that's why i asked. Is practice supposed to always be easy and peaceful ? If it's not easy and peaceful, when do we stop ?

But you're right, i think i have to take my own decision rather than asking for others to take care of me.

Thanks for the teaching, and for allowing me to see more clearly about my motivations, fears and needs.

Gassho,

Uggy,
Sat today

[gaurdianaq]

Well, i know it is not the cause of the crisis i'm going through, since, as i said, i practiced during years and years without it causing a crisis. It's just that since nowadays i'm anxious most of the time, well, the content of my zazen is anxious as well. My question is : should i quit the practice because it is sometimes painful, or should i persevere... I know why i practice : i want to stop suffering, that's why i started ; what i don't know is if, to end suffering, i should confront it on the cushion, or flee it. That's what is making me hesitate. And since anxiety is mostly "fear of fear", i don't know if i can take a rational decision, that's why i asked. Is practice supposed to always be easy and peaceful ? If it's not easy and peaceful, when do we stop ?

But you're right, i think i have to take my own decision rather than asking for others to take care of me.

Thanks for the teaching, and for allowing me to see more clearly about my motivations, fears and needs.

Gassho,

Uggy,
Sat today

I think one thing to keep in mind with things like anxiety is to be careful about thinking of it as "confronting them" because then your sitting kind of becomes a battle (as opposed to sitting with what is). You might find Jon Kabat Zinn's books interesting as they specifically deal with meditation/treating anxiety/stress. Hopefully you have some good support structures in place though, and as always if you ever want to talk feel free to reach out


Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Ugrok]

Thanks gaurdianaq, you're right about the battling making it worse, i should not have used the word "Confront". In fact it's Kabat Zinn's books that brought me to zazen in the first place, maybe i should read them again !

Gassho,

Uggy,

Sat today

[Jundo]

Well, i know it is not the cause of the crisis i'm going through, since, as i said, i practiced during years and years without it causing a crisis. It's just that since nowadays i'm anxious most of the time, well, the content of my zazen is anxious as well. My question is : should i quit the practice because it is sometimes painful, or should i persevere... I know why i practice : i want to stop suffering, that's why i started ; what i don't know is if, to end suffering, i should confront it on the cushion, or flee it. That's what is making me hesitate. And since anxiety is mostly "fear of fear", i don't know if i can take a rational decision, that's why i asked. Is practice supposed to always be easy and peaceful ? If it's not easy and peaceful, when do we stop ?

But you're right, i think i have to take my own decision rather than asking for others to take care of me.

Thanks for the teaching, and for allowing me to see more clearly about my motivations, fears and needs.

Gassho,

Uggy,
Sat today

Hi Uggy,

It depends what you think that you can handle, and if it feels like an issue that will correct itself. You are the best judge, together with your counselor. If it is more than you feel that you can handle, then stop. If it is just a minor discomfort that you think is temporary, then keep going.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Koushi]

Hey Uggy,

I've had panic disorder and PTSD since I was a child... one thing that my therapists and self-experience has taught me is that when you begin looking at experiences in a fearful manner, it's not the experience itself that's the issue, it's your own fear of feeling afraid/discomfort, as you mentioned when you said "fear of fear" and "..except that i'm scared of the next zazen because i feel it will be difficult again."

On one hand, your experiences and feelings are not dangerous, you're not losing your mind, you won't disintegrate into nothingness — on the other, you're the only one that can determine, with the help of your doctors, if it's a good thing for you to face and deal with the experiences you feel during sitting. I've had the same feelings you had, derealization and depersonalization can be frightening and off-putting (yet ultimately harmless). My doctors have all said when you reach the point of those, your brain is trying to actively slow things down for you because you're overwhelmed with stress, anxiety, etc. Forcing yourself to face these sensations right now might not be the best thing, and adding stress by worrying about how things were different eight years ago isn't helping.

Jundo said it best, though: "You are the best judge, together with your counselor. If it is more than you feel that you can handle, then stop. If it is just a minor discomfort that you think is temporary, then keep going."

Apologies for going over 3 sentences, I hope you find relief soon,

Gassho,
Koushi
STLaH

[Ryumon]

My thought, as someone with absolutely no qualifications as a mental health professional nor a zen professional, is that if you have to ask the question, then that's already part of the answer. There's nothing wrong with taking a break for a while to see what happens. If you can, walk for a half hour instead of sitting and see if that helps.

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

[GrasshopperMan17]

hey Uggy,

I am not a professional in any sense of the word, and i struggle with anxiety myself, but i can offer some secondhand advice i got from a viewer on my stream once. i will try to quote him here:

using meditation i was able to unpick my triggers for anxiety. i learned that anxiety is caused by the subcontious mind believing that certain emotions are not safe to be expressed. whenever this emotion surfaces the subcontious mind jumps in and represses it. we dont notice this occurring because it is unconscious. by observing anxiety in meditation i was able to see this process occuring. by finding the beliefs and challenging them i was able to reprogram my mind, and my anxiety which had been ruining my life for 10 years was cured.

(hey, i did it!)
I dont claim that the same can happen for you, and i'm still not there myself, but it obviously worked for him, so it may be some encouragement to know that it can be done. i would say sit with it and try to find what emotions youre supressing to cause the feedback loop that is anxiety, but if its too much right now id also suggest taking it easy and taking a hiatus on it, if you feel its necessary. its really up to you to decide whats best for you; that is your responsibility and yours alone. much metta to you in the meantime, and i hope you figure this out.

sorry for running on long.

Gassho, John
ST/LAH

[Ugrok]

Well, i don't understand shit about myself... During today's zazen, i just let it all go. I let myself feel completely lost, i let myself feel completely scared, i said "okay, disappear if you must", and the result was... peace... What a beautiful mystery we are... I'm going to take it easy, slow it down a bit, and we'll see how it goes.

Gassho,

Uggy,
Sat today

[Jundo]

Well, i don't understand shit about myself... During today's zazen, i just let it all go. I let myself feel completely lost, i let myself feel completely scared, i said "okay, disappear if you must", and the result was... peace... What a beautiful mystery we are... I'm going to take it easy, slow it down a bit, and we'll see how it goes.

Gassho,

Uggy,
Sat today

When I used to do roller coasters (honestly, I still don't like them ), I would get so stressed that I tightened my abdominal muscles and literally could not breathe on the drops! After practicing Zazen some time, I intentionally relaxed the muscles and my body/mind in general, ignoring thoughts of "down" and "up." I let the experience be the experience, including my resistance. It became an experience of stillness even in motion, and no particular stress.

Leaning in to the stress, just as you describe, "letting it all go," sounds much the same.

Jishin told a joke:

Patient:

When I raise my arm like this it hurts.

Doctor:

Don't raise your arm like this then.

There is a mathematical corollary: If you do something, and it feels good, peaceful and right ... DO THAT!

Like my roller coasters, I still have to deal with my fear any time I get on one, even today. I have not ridden one in several years. However, I am sure that, if I vowed to get on 100 roller coasters, after a few, if I kept doing what I said, I would be over my fear as I would quickly become used to letting the fear go. So, keep doing what you did and see if it solves the problem. Even if you don't always feel fearless all the time, I bet you learn to find that inner switch to let the fear go.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, J

STLah