Annoyed and questioned by "buddhist metaphysics"

[Inshin]

Everything that enters your life - enter is the wrong word - is you; it's up to you to take care of this.

Permeable . A nice word I've learnt from Jundo's and Kirk's talk on ego.

You can still pet the cat, realizing that the hard borders of petter and pet and the whole world flowing are not as separate as they often seem

I don't have a cat but I like to wash the dishes

Gassho
Sat

[Ryumon]

Hi !

I'm full of questions about the purpose of buddhist metaphysics statements such as : "the world is a dream" (or an hallucination, would say neurosciences today), or "there is no self". Everytime a teacher writes about this, everyone seems so pleased with it and so comforted by it ; for me, those are really scary perspectives ! If the world is a dream, then what can i trust ? Am i alone in it forever ? If there is no self, then, same question, what am i ? The worst is that i can see that, during zazen, i can't find or name something that would be my "self" ; but this is not something comforting, more like something bewildering... Still, i discovered that it is when you stop searching that you begin to understand what you are, which, i guess, is a progress...

I thought that buddhism was a practical religion / philosophy whose purpose was to end suffering and not about metaphysics ; but those statements 1 - seem like metaphysical to me and 2 - do not seem to help with ending suffering, at least for me (feeling like i'm the only one, hahaha).

As far as I have understood it, much of our suffering arises because we believe that the self is hard, and not interconnected with everything, and that we believe that reality is what we see, twisted by our minds to meet our expectations (or to conflict with our expectations). Understanding this will free us, and we can learn this by sitting, where it can happen naturally, over time, like silt settling in water, or through studying books or koans. A lot of the sudden realization we see recounted in koan stories happens when a student is at that point where a nudge - either gentle or a bit violent - will bring them to understand these things.

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

[Jundo]

...and not interconnected with everything ...

"Interconnected" is not the half of it, although we are interconnected too, as well as our own individual self too. No, "interconnected" does not even scratch the surface.

"Interidentical" starts to get there, and fails too ... because what "two" to be identical? It is like your thumbnail and your knuckle arguing about which one is really the hand or your thumb. Or your thumb wondering if it is nail or knuckle. Something like that.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kyōsen]

"Interconnected" is not the half of it, although we are interconnected too, as well as our own individual self too. No, "interconnected" does not even scratch the surface.

"Interidentical" starts to get there, and fails too ... because what "two" to be identical? It is like your thumbnail and your knuckle arguing about which one is really the hand or your thumb. Or your thumb wondering if it is nail or knuckle. Something like that.

I've been playing with this saying: You don't live life, life lives you. It's not quite there (lol) but it's helping (for now).

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

[krissydear]

This is an absolutely wonderful thread, and exactly what I needed right now. Thank you, Uggy for asking, and thank you all for your answers.

Gassho
krissy
sat


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hoseki]

Hi Uggy,


So I have a sort of different take on this. (apologies for the length) My initial reading on life is a like a dream is from the Chuang-tzu its the old story of Chuang-tzu dreaming he was a butterfly then waking up and wondering if he was a butterfly dreaming he was a man. So the images in dreams are often chaotic and fleeting. But so is much of waking life. While waking life is more orderly things come and go and often without clear meaning. So I see it primarily as a teaching on impermanence.

That said, I'm also reminded of a passage from David Hume's Treatise on Human Nature. He spent a lot of time trying to "find the self" but all he could find was a bundle of ideas ( reminds me of the Skandhas.) So he writes that he was filled with this kind of despair. His solution was to go play billiards with his buddies. Which to me sounds a lot like fetch water and chop wood. Basically, when this kind of thing happens it might be time to just go engage in some sort of activity. If these are things that your feeling then maybe you can do something that makes you feel different. Basically, your changing the conditions that give rise feelings. If introspection is causing despair then take a break.

Anywho, that's just my reading on this.

Gassho
Hoseki
sattoday

[Ugrok]

Hey Hoseki !

You are so right. Basically, nowadays, when the questioning or the introspection is too intense, i just grab a shovel and go to my garden and plant some stuff or dig trenches for my future vegetables. Then the questions fade away and even sometimes seem stupid. What do i care if i don't know exactly who i am or what is the world ? It's a bit stupid in the first place when you think about it. Like, we don't know exactly what water is, or how electricity works, and yet we drink and use our computers and lights everyday... Maybe life is too short to ask oneself what it is, i think we're better living it. So that's what i'm trying to do, by doing stuff. Yet there's something in me that seems to want to be perfectly secure, perfectly safe, and that thinks that knowing everything and how things are really would be a really good thing. And i feel this is this part of me that is scared when it realises that it's not possible. Oh well, still got a lot to learn to live quietly with my "self"...

Gassho,

Uggy,
Sat today
LAH and planted 15 small trees !

[Jakuden]

Dear Uggy, it may seem like everyone is going about their business not bothered by these questions, but just the existence of religion proves that the vast majority of Humanity is concerned with the answers--or lack thereof. If it is not comforting to you that you are part of a much bigger picture than what the brain and five senses can process, perhaps try to leave the intellectual part of all that aside for now and just sit, dropping all the questions and allowing all the annoyance, uncertainty and confusion of life to be just okay as is.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Shonin Risa Bear]

We are also fifteen small trees. Gratitude. _()_

gassho
doyu shonin sat, some lah

[Jundo]

... i just grab a shovel and go to my garden and plant some stuff or dig trenches for my future vegetables. ...

Do the tomatoes ask themselves whether they truly are, and whether tomato-ness is a dream or not?

In fact. is it clear what is the garden and what is tomato?

Or is the tomato just the garden in tomato form ... and does every seed of the tomato contain the whole garden as much as the whole garden fully contains every tomato?

Is the tomato aware where it begins and the ground ends ...

Is a tomato a tomato or a tomatoe ... or a fruit or a vegetable ... is ketchup still a tomato ... or a hot dog a tomato ...


... or is it just this? ...



... or this ...



In any case ... plant the garden, the sun is warm ... DELICIOUS!

Gassho, J

STLah

https://youtu.be/Dg2HKMFsers

[Kiri]

Thank you Uggy for the questions and thank you everyone else for your answers!
Gassho, Nikolas
Sat/Lah

Στάλθηκε από το SM-T510 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

[Daitetsu]

Hi Ugrok!

Small self / big self - no opposites, but merely different sides of the same coin.
Nothing to worry about, all good, even when things aren’t seemingly.
Just sit without thinking about metaphysics and eventually it will all dissolve.

(Sorry for my longish absence from the forum everyone - I’ve been with you via Insight Timer though)

Gassho,

大哲

Sat2day

[Jundo]

Hi Daitetsu!

Gassho, J

STLah

[Daitetsu]

Hi Jundo,

Sorry for being silent for so long...

Gassho,

大哲

Sat2day

[Risho]

Good seeing you around Daitetsu

Gassho

Risho
-stlah