"Fake Buddhist News"

[Inshin]

Recently I came across a discussion on one of the Zen forums about appropriating Buddhism in the West, watering it down to meet western needs and making it into a a self help feel good thing. There was a link to this article https://lithub.com/how-a-poetry-coll...iterary-world/
about how the supposedly new translation of Therigatha turned out to be a reimagined poetry of a guy who couldn't get published under his own name.
It rings the bell with Jundo's Zazenkai talk about Heart Sutra and its origins. I'm glad to have come across a teacher who is a translator and who does such an amazing job at fact checking and confronting "fake buddhist news" online.
For me it shows the importance of the simultaneous practice and the Dharma study, because only through realised, experienced practice we can truly understand the meaning of the words.

Sorry for going over 3 sentences.
Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

Recently I came across a discussion on one of the Zen forums about appropriating Buddhism in the West, watering it down to meet western needs and making it into a a self help feel good thing. There was a link to this article https://lithub.com/how-a-poetry-coll...iterary-world/
about how the supposedly new translation of Therigatha turned out to be a reimagined poetry of a guy who couldn't get published under his own name.
It rings the bell with Jundo's Zazenkai talk about Heart Sutra and its origins. I'm glad to have come across a teacher who is a translator and who does such an amazing job at fact checking and confronting "fake buddhist news" online.
For me it shows the importance of the simultaneous practice and the Dharma study, because only through realised, experienced practice we can truly understand the meaning of the words.

Sorry for going over 3 sentences.
Gassho
Sat

Well, "authentic" is not a matter of east or west, old or new. In some ways, modern, western Buddhism is much wiser and more powerful than it ever was in many places in Asia 1000 years ago. It depends. Each places and age has its strengths and weaknesses.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Bion]

There is a tendency to over-adapt Buddhism to suit western needs and preferences. I saw a Japanese Zen monk once say that westerners can sit zazen with eyes closed since they find it hard to focus with eyes open. And a whoooole bunch of other things like that, but luckily, one can choose how to practice.

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Tairin]

I didn’t read the whole article in detail but I read enough and skimmed the rest. I think it is unfortunate that there are frauds and shysters out there looking to exploit genuine interest in Buddhist writings (or really anything). I totally agree with the statement that we are lucky to have Jundo to guide us.

Thank you for sharing that article


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Jundo]

A little note on the art of translation ...

Whether this is a "translation" or not is a matter of degree, purpose and disclosure. So, in my recent book, I updated to modern English and simplified some of Dogen for readability in some sections, but disclosed that I am doing so to help new readers understand. In other sections, I stayed closer to the other "standard" English translations, and tracked Dogen more closely, then offered explanations. The former are interpretations, modernizations and simplifications, the latter I would call "translations."

However, if someone offers "translations" that are so far removed from the original that they are not really the original at all, then there is a problem. This book of poems seems to step over the line. That is though even though it seems that the author tried to disclose what he was doing in his introduction, at least to some degree. For example, his poem below seems to have little connection to the original. When we look at the controversial "translation" here by Weingast compared to the more literal and faithful to the original poems by the two scholars on the left side, you see that Weingast is on another planet. It barely reflects the original and is not a "translation."

I also understand the point of a male author's voice cancelling out the original womens' voices too.



Gassho, J

STLah

[JimInBC]

It is much more complex than the story makes it sound. Matty Weingast, the author, was honestly trying to capture the essence of the Therigatha poets, and worked closely with the Abbotess of a monastery and the nuns there to capture the ancient poems in a way that also captured the voices of the contemporary nun's experience.

He, however, made enemies with a few fundamentalist monastics in the Theravada tradition that didn't like what he did. I facilitated a Zoom meeting with Matty and some very angry monks and lay practitioners. I was also part of a private discussion thread about "what to do about Matty" in which monastics plotted how best to discredit him and his book. Seeing how angry the monastics were made me leave that conversation and also made me leave Buddhism - if after 30 years of monastic training they were so angry and going after a young man who loved poetry and the Therigatha what's the point of Buddhism? It obviously doesn't work.

I changed my mind and just left Theravada and returned to Zen, which is why I am here.

Anyway, I don't want to get into names or forums involved - I don't want to "gossip." So this is the last I'll say on the issue. But I can't help speak up since I was there for part of this story. Please realize that the author is not a villain or con artist, he's a young poet who loved his source material, worked with nuns to "get it right," but didn't have the literary theory background to fully think through the difference between translation and creative adaptation. And there is a strain of fundamentalism in the Theravada community that can at times be motivated by vengeance and not Metta.

Sorry. I went way over.

Gassho,
Jim
stlah

[Inshin]

It is much more complex than the story makes it sound. The author was honestly trying to capture the essence of the Therigatha poets, and worked closely with the Abbotess of a monastery and the nuns there to capture the ancient poems in a way that also captured the voices of the contemporary nun's experience.

He, however, made enemies with a few fundamentalist monastics in the Theravada tradition that didn't like what he did. I facilitated a Zoom meeting with the author and some very angry monks and lay practitioners. I was also part of a private discussion about "what to do about him" in which monastics plotted how best to discredit him and his book. Seeing how angry the monastics were made me leave that conversation and also made me leave Buddhism - if after 30 years of monastic training they were so angry and going after a young man who loved poetry and the Therigatha what's the point of Buddhism? It obviously doesn't work.

I changed my mind and just left Theravada and returned to Zen, which is why I am here.

Anyway, I don't want to get into names or forums involved - I don't want to "gossip." So this is the last I'll say on the issue. But I can't help speak up since I was there for part of this story. Please realize that the author is not a villain or con artist, he's a young poet who loved his source material, worked with nuns to "get it right," but didn't have the literary theory background to fully think through the difference between translation and creative adaptation. And there is a strain of fundamentalism in the Theravada community that can at times be motivated by vengeance and not Metta.

Sorry. I went way over.

Gassho,
Jim
stlah

Thank you Jim for providing background story to this article.

Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

It is much more complex than the story makes it sound. Matty Weingast, the author, was honestly trying to capture the essence of the Therigatha poets, and worked closely with the Abbotess of a monastery and the nuns there to capture the ancient poems in a way that also captured the voices of the contemporary nun's experience.

He, however, made enemies with a few fundamentalist monastics in the Theravada tradition that didn't like what he did. I facilitated a Zoom meeting with Matty and some very angry monks and lay practitioners. I was also part of a private discussion thread about "what to do about Matty" in which monastics plotted how best to discredit him and his book. Seeing how angry the monastics were made me leave that conversation and also made me leave Buddhism - if after 30 years of monastic training they were so angry and going after a young man who loved poetry and the Therigatha what's the point of Buddhism? It obviously doesn't work.

I changed my mind and just left Theravada and returned to Zen, which is why I am here.

Anyway, I don't want to get into names or forums involved - I don't want to "gossip." So this is the last I'll say on the issue. But I can't help speak up since I was there for part of this story. Please realize that the author is not a villain or con artist, he's a young poet who loved his source material, worked with nuns to "get it right," but didn't have the literary theory background to fully think through the difference between translation and creative adaptation. And there is a strain of fundamentalism in the Theravada community that can at times be motivated by vengeance and not Metta.

Sorry. I went way over.

Gassho,
Jim
stlah

Thank you. Very interesting. Well, it does not seem like it was intention then.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Risho]

There is a tendency to over-adapt Buddhism to suit western needs and preferences. I saw a Japanese Zen monk once say that westerners can sit zazen with eyes closed since they find it hard to focus with eyes open. And a whoooole bunch of other things like that, but luckily, one can choose how to practice.

[emoji1374] SatToday

that is a good point! In many ways I think this will naturally evolve over time here; it’s so new here and, while sometimes i get concerned I’m not being genuine or whatever and I get angry over the ceremony, I’d rather be patient and not throw the baby out with the bathwater, especially with something that has developed over time. There is something visceral about chanting and embodying our chants and paying attention to how we organize our things and minds and selves while we sit. It’s not just woo woo; actually physically doing this practice is so important; doing the meal chant, etc really bring in that mind into seemingly mundane things so we realize there is no mundanity in anything; this way is so optimistic; now I’m being wordy, hyperbolic and plaguerizing Jundo hahaha

I will make a better effort to stay terse within the 3 sentences

gassho

risho
-stlah

[Tairin]

I didn’t read the whole article in detail but I read enough and skimmed the rest. I think it is unfortunate that there are frauds and shysters out there looking to exploit genuine interest in Buddhist writings (or really anything). I totally agree with the statement that we are lucky to have Jundo to guide us.

Thank you for sharing that article


Tairin
Sat today and lah

Based on what Jim wrote above I respectfully retract my comment implying this particular poet/author was a fraud/shyster. Sounds like the situation is more complicated than might be evident at first glance. Besides it wasn’t a good example of my following the Precepts.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Jundo]

I looked at this a little more closely via reviews at several sources. I don't think it merely a matter of someone who translated in a way which offends orthodox Theravadan beliefs. It seems more like someone who, with good intent perhaps but almost no wish to follow the content in the source language, just put down what he felt or imagined it would be nice if the poem said in light of this modern world. That is perfectly fine, and "poetic license," as Mr. Weingast's own self expression of his own thoughts, but the trouble is that these versions are so far from the original language, and so far in left field, that they just cannot be called "translations."

It is misleading to people who might read the book hoping to know what the authors of these poems said so many centuries ago, and it is especially unfair to the women who created the original poems, as ideas are placed in their mouths far removed from anything they said.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

PS - In an interview, from the 8:20 mark to 12:00, he seems to say that it ran away with him, and it was mostly his own words as much or more than the women.

https://soundcloud.com/user-426156245/the-first-free-women-with

[JimInBC]

I looked at this a little more closely via reviews at several sources. I don't think it merely a matter of someone who translated in a way which offends orthodox Theravadan beliefs. It seems more like someone who, with good intent perhaps but almost no wish to follow the content in the source language, just put down what he felt or imagined it would be nice if the poem said in light of this modern world. That is perfectly fine, and "poetic license," as Mr. Weingast's own self expression of his own thoughts, but the trouble is that these versions are so far from the original language, and so far in left field, that they just cannot be called "translations."

It is misleading to people who might read the book hoping to know what the authors of these poems said so many centuries ago, and it is especially unfair to the women who created the original poems, as ideas are placed in their mouths far removed from anything they said.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

PS - In an interview, from the 8:20 mark to 12:00, he seems to say that it ran away with him, and it was mostly his own words as much or more than the women.

https://soundcloud.com/user-42615624...ree-women-with

Oh, yes, agreed. If I wasn't clear, my apologies. The poems don't work as translations - they depart far too much from the original. I was shocked when I started reading other translations and looking at the original Pali of the Therigatha. Matty heightens the sexuality, and removes all reference to rebirth, which is quite present in the originals.

My point was that it wasn't intentional on his part, and there was more going on in the background then just poor translations.

EDIT TO ADD: I do regret bringing up Theravada in my earlier post. It is a great practice, filled with lots of loving, supportive people. While an interaction with a few individual monastics might have led to a personal crisis of faith, I shouldn't have generalized to the practice or the practitioners. I apologize.

Sorry for going over.

Gassho,
Jim
stlah

[Shonin Risa Bear]

S. T. Coleridge was asked why he gave no reviews, unlike his friend Wordsworth, and replied to the effect that all writing is miraculous. I have been given a copy of this little book; something seemed off about it to my (formerly) scholarly eye, yet I did not detect intentional harm. Whether fast or slow, the water does not carry away the moon.

gassho
doyu shonin sat and lah today

[Onka]

S. T. Coleridge was asked why he gave no reviews, unlike his friend Wordsworth, and replied to the effect that all writing is miraculous. I have been given a copy of this little book; something seemed off about it to my (formerly) scholarly eye, yet I did not detect intentional harm. Whether fast or slow, the water does not carry away the moon.

gassho
doyu shonin sat and lah today

Gassho
Onka
st

[krissydear]

S. T. Coleridge was asked why he gave no reviews, unlike his friend Wordsworth, and replied to the effect that all writing is miraculous. I have been given a copy of this little book; something seemed off about it to my (formerly) scholarly eye, yet I did not detect intentional harm. Whether fast or slow, the water does not carry away the moon.

gassho
doyu shonin sat and lah today

gassho
sat/lah today