Zen Stoicism

[Risho]

this is weird timing; I literally opened up “Discovering the True Self” and there on the page was a reference to your point: “The real state of things is [inherently] taken care of. There’s no need to twist things into what we want.” Now, and I can hear Jundo saying this lol, this does not mean some passivity or nihilism; this is a deep surrender and acceptance of how things are so you can actually do what needs doing without all the baggage and resistance. In fact I know in one of jundo’s talks he says if you lost your job, you best get out there and create the best resume you can. Zen is one big surrender which is not tge same as giving up.

gassho

risho
-stlah

ps just read what you wrote Jundo; I think I was posting at the same time; thank you!

[Jundo]

this is weird timing; I literally opened up “Discovering the True Self” and there on the page was a reference to your point: “The real state of things is [inherently] taken care of. There’s no need to twist things into what we want.” Now, and I can hear Jundo saying this lol, this does not mean some passivity or nihilism; this is a deep surrender and acceptance of how things are so you can actually do what needs doing without all the baggage and resistance. In fact I know in one of jundo’s talks he says if you lost your job, you best get out there and create the best resume you can. Zen is one big surrender which is not tge same as giving up.

gassho

risho
-stlah

ps just read what you wrote Jundo; I think I was posting at the same time; thank you!

https://youtu.be/JDSPwexlyTo

[Suuko]

I believe that if we really view everything as sacred, we drop resistance towards the unpleasant things and make a genuine effort in a very calm way to improve things. The less we react to things, the more we can act.

Gassho,
Lah,
Geerish.


Sent from my PAR-LX1M using Tapatalk

[Tom A.]

Zen Stoicism

I think, due to misconceptions, mainly driven by a twisting of Stoicism into mere platitudes to gain external career success by Silicon Valley types, Stoicism has gained a reputation for being uncaring and cold. I really, really believe Stoicism can inform Soto Zen because it ultimately IS wisdom and truth, and wisdom and truth, no matter where they’re from fit into Soto Zen like a hand fits into a glove. I feel that in many ways Soto Zen is closer to Stoicism than Theravada “classical” Buddhism, so this is my impassioned posting informing those with misconceptions what Stoicism is really about. (It will run longer than three sentences, I am sorry.)

Stoicism has a very interesting concept called “indifference” and its not as negative as it sounds at first glance (I don’t know what the Greek and Latin original of “indifference” or any other of these words is and am too lazy to look them up at the moment.) let me explain:

It’s very much the serenity prayer but more specific: there are things that we can control and things that we can’t control.

The things that we can control are our deliberate judgments, beliefs, values, goals and decision to act or not to act in the present moment.

That is it.

We don’t have control over anything else. We don’t have control of any of the “external” “vicissitudes of life”: our gain or loss of reputation, employment, money, health, our pleasure or pain, praise and blame.

We can influence them but their outcome is ultimately 100% beyond our control:

the classic example is of an archer and her target, she can train, choose her bow, choose the arrows, choose her target, choose when to let go of the arrow (or everything that involves deliberate judgements, beliefs, values, goals and decision to act or not to act in the present moment.) After that nothing is up to her, not the gust of wind, the movement of her target or anything else that could make her miss.

Therefore, anything that is not something we can control, anything that is not our deliberate judgments, beliefs, values, goals and decision to act or not to act in the present moment is something that is “indifferent.”

We still value certain outcomes over other outcomes but they are ultimately indifferent and beyond our control, thus we attach the prefix: preferred, denoting that the outcome is valued or the prefix: dis-preferred, denoting that the outcome is not valued so much.

In all, there are “preferred indifferences” and “dis-preferred indifferences.” The goal is not to be indifferent to anything (in the negative sense), but to shift our locus of control to what we actually can control and therefore to where our attention is most effective, namely our deliberate judgements, beliefs, values, goals and decision to act or not to act in the present moment AKA our character and to accept the rest.

Stoicism is not a cold, emotionless turning away from society and social issues, it is the opposite. Stoics from the very beginning of Stoicism realized that we are social animals and therefor happiness and flourishing require us to be pro-social. They were so pro-social that they had a concept called cosmopolitanism, that we are all part of the same cosmos and therefor despite political parties, status, country, continent or planet, we treat each other with respect and fight for each other to flourish and be happy.

The Serenity Prayer is:

“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.”

The Shantideva version is:

“If there's a remedy when trouble strikes,
What reason is there for dejection?
And if there is no help for it,
What use is there in being glum?”

I feel like Dogen was trying to get at the sense of only being able to control some things in Genjokoan with:

“blossoms fall (even though we love them), and weeds spread (even though we dislike them)”

Stoicism is a tool that shines a light on what can control and can’t control.

This is all a wordy way to say it is wise to focus on this verse from the Dhammapada:

Avoid evil
Do good
Cleanse the mind

That is the end of my “PowerPoint” presentation hope you enjoyed.

PS For the nit picky, I am not suggesting that Soto Zen is 100% based in Virtue Ethics (ethics that emphasize personal character over outcomes or commandments) as there are the Precepts (which is complicated because they are not the same as “commandments”) someone else that is much smarter and has a training in philosophy can discuss and parse the differences between Stoicism and Soto Zen, I am only trying to note the benefits of Stoicism.

Gassho,
Tom
SAT/Lah

[Tom A.]

I believe that if we really view everything as sacred, we drop resistance towards the unpleasant things and make a genuine effort in a very calm way to improve things. The less we react to things, the more we can act.

Gassho,
Lah,
Geerish.


Sent from my PAR-LX1M using Tapatalk

Gsssho,
Tom
Sat/Lah


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Kyotai]

I think, due to misconceptions, mainly driven by a twisting of Stoicism into mere platitudes to gain external career success by Silicon Valley types, Stoicism has gained a reputation for being uncaring and cold. I really, really believe Stoicism can inform Soto Zen because it ultimately IS wisdom and truth, and wisdom and truth, no matter where they’re from fit into Soto Zen like a hand fits into a glove. I feel that in many ways Soto Zen is closer to Stoicism than Theravada “classical” Buddhism, so this is my impassioned posting informing those with misconceptions what Stoicism is really about. (It will run longer than three sentences, I am sorry.)

Stoicism has a very interesting concept called “indifference” and its not as negative as it sounds at first glance (I don’t know what the Greek and Latin original of “indifference” or any other of these words is and am too lazy to look them up at the moment.) let me explain:

It’s very much the serenity prayer but more specific: there are things that we can control and things that we can’t control.

The things that we can control are our deliberate beliefs, values, goals and decision to act or not to act in the present moment.

That is it.

We don’t have control over anything else. We don’t have control of any of the “external” “vicissitudes of life”: our gain or loss of reputation, employment, money, health, our pleasure or pain, praise and blame.

We can influence them but their outcome is ultimately 100% beyond our control:

the classic example is of an archer and her target, she can train, choose her bow, choose the arrows, choose her target, choose when to let go of the arrow (or everything that involves deliberate beliefs, values, goals and decision to act or not to act in the present moment.) After that nothing is up to her, not the gust of wind, the movement of her target or anything else that could make her miss.

Therefore, anything that is not something we can control, anything that is not our deliberate beliefs, values, goals and decision to act or not to act in the present moment is something that is “indifferent.”

We still value certain outcomes over other outcomes but they are ultimately indifferent and beyond our control, thus we attach the prefix: preferred, denoting that the outcome is valued or the prefix: dis-preferred, denoting that the outcome is not valued so much.

In all, there are “preferred indifferences” and “dis-preferred indifferences.” The goal is not to be indifferent to anything (in the negative sense), but to shift our locus of control to what we actually can control and therefore to where our attention is most effective, namely our deliberate beliefs, values, goals and decision to act or not to act in the present moment AKA our character and to accept the rest.

Stoicism is not a cold, emotionless turning away from society and social issues, it is the opposite. Stoics from the very beginning of Stoicism realized that we are social animals and therefor happiness and flourishing require us to be pro-social. They were so pro-social that they had a concept called cosmopolitanism, that we are all part of the same cosmos and therefor despite political parties, status, country, continent or planet, we treat each other with respect and fight for each other to flourish and be happy.

The Serenity Prayer is:

“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.”

The Shantideva version is:

“If there's a remedy when trouble strikes,
What reason is there for dejection?
And if there is no help for it,
What use is there in being glum?”

I feel like Dogen was trying to get at the sense of only being able to control some things in Genjokoan with:

“blossoms fall (even though we love them), and weeds spread (even though we dislike them)”

Stoicism is a tool that shines a light on what can control and can’t control.

This is all a wordy way to say it is wise to focus on this verse from the Dhammapada:

Avoid evil
Do good
Cleanse the mind

That is the end of my “PowerPoint” presentation hope you enjoyed.

PS For the nit picky, I am not suggesting that Soto Zen is 100% based in Virtue Ethics (ethics that emphasize personal character over outcomes or commandments) as there are the Precepts (which is complicated because they are not the same as “commandments”) someone else that is much smarter and has a training in philosophy can discuss and parse the differences between Stoicism and Soto Zen, I am only trying to note the benefits of Stoicism.

Gassho,
Tom
SAT/Lah

I enjoyed that thank you.

Gassho, Kyotai
ST

[JimInBC]

I think, due to misconceptions, mainly driven by a twisting of Stoicism into mere platitudes to gain external career success by Silicon Valley types, Stoicism has gained a reputation for being uncaring and cold. I really, really believe Stoicism can inform Soto Zen because it ultimately IS wisdom and truth, and wisdom and truth, no matter where they’re from fit into Soto Zen like a hand fits into a glove. I feel that in many ways Soto Zen is closer to Stoicism than Theravada “classical” Buddhism, so this is my impassioned posting informing those with misconceptions what Stoicism is really about. (It will run longer than three sentences, I am sorry.)

Stoicism has a very interesting concept called “indifference” and its not as negative as it sounds at first glance (I don’t know what the Greek and Latin original of “indifference” or any other of these words is and am too lazy to look them up at the moment.) let me explain:

It’s very much the serenity prayer but more specific: there are things that we can control and things that we can’t control.

The things that we can control are our deliberate beliefs, values, goals and decision to act or not to act in the present moment.

That is it.

We don’t have control over anything else. We don’t have control of any of the “external” “vicissitudes of life”: our gain or loss of reputation, employment, money, health, our pleasure or pain, praise and blame.

We can influence them but their outcome is ultimately 100% beyond our control:

the classic example is of an archer and her target, she can train, choose her bow, choose the arrows, choose her target, choose when to let go of the arrow (or everything that involves deliberate beliefs, values, goals and decision to act or not to act in the present moment.) After that nothing is up to her, not the gust of wind, the movement of her target or anything else that could make her miss.

Therefore, anything that is not something we can control, anything that is not our deliberate beliefs, values, goals and decision to act or not to act in the present moment is something that is “indifferent.”

We still value certain outcomes over other outcomes but they are ultimately indifferent and beyond our control, thus we attach the prefix: preferred, denoting that the outcome is valued or the prefix: dis-preferred, denoting that the outcome is not valued so much.

In all, there are “preferred indifferences” and “dis-preferred indifferences.” The goal is not to be indifferent to anything (in the negative sense), but to shift our locus of control to what we actually can control and therefore to where our attention is most effective, namely our deliberate beliefs, values, goals and decision to act or not to act in the present moment AKA our character and to accept the rest.

Stoicism is not a cold, emotionless turning away from society and social issues, it is the opposite. Stoics from the very beginning of Stoicism realized that we are social animals and therefor happiness and flourishing require us to be pro-social. They were so pro-social that they had a concept called cosmopolitanism, that we are all part of the same cosmos and therefor despite political parties, status, country, continent or planet, we treat each other with respect and fight for each other to flourish and be happy.

The Serenity Prayer is:

“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.”

The Shantideva version is:

“If there's a remedy when trouble strikes,
What reason is there for dejection?
And if there is no help for it,
What use is there in being glum?”

I feel like Dogen was trying to get at the sense of only being able to control some things in Genjokoan with:

“blossoms fall (even though we love them), and weeds spread (even though we dislike them)”

Stoicism is a tool that shines a light on what can control and can’t control.

This is all a wordy way to say it is wise to focus on this verse from the Dhammapada:

Avoid evil
Do good
Cleanse the mind

That is the end of my “PowerPoint” presentation hope you enjoyed.

PS For the nit picky, I am not suggesting that Soto Zen is 100% based in Virtue Ethics (ethics that emphasize personal character over outcomes or commandments) as there are the Precepts (which is complicated because they are not the same as “commandments”) someone else that is much smarter and has a training in philosophy can discuss and parse the differences between Stoicism and Soto Zen, I am only trying to note the benefits of Stoicism.

Gassho,
Tom
SAT/Lah

Thank you! I really enjoyed reading that!

And because I get so few chances to make use of my classical Greek from my Uni days the Greek word usually translated as "indifferent" is ἀπάθεια. We get the word "apathy" from it, but it was used to mean indifferent, without suffering. I kinda think you could translate it as equanimity, but since apathy is a negation, without pathos, indifference, seeing things without difference, might capture the sense better.

Thanks again for your great post!

Gassho,
Jim
STlah

[Kyotai]

I think, due to misconceptions, mainly driven by a twisting of Stoicism into mere platitudes to gain external career success by Silicon Valley types, Stoicism has gained a reputation for being uncaring and cold. I really, really believe Stoicism can inform Soto Zen because it ultimately IS wisdom and truth, and wisdom and truth, no matter where they’re from fit into Soto Zen like a hand fits into a glove. I feel that in many ways Soto Zen is closer to Stoicism than Theravada “classical” Buddhism, so this is my impassioned posting informing those with misconceptions what Stoicism is really about. (It will run longer than three sentences, I am sorry.)

Stoicism has a very interesting concept called “indifference” and its not as negative as it sounds at first glance (I don’t know what the Greek and Latin original of “indifference” or any other of these words is and am too lazy to look them up at the moment.) let me explain:

It’s very much the serenity prayer but more specific: there are things that we can control and things that we can’t control.

The things that we can control are our deliberate beliefs, values, goals and decision to act or not to act in the present moment.

That is it.

We don’t have control over anything else. We don’t have control of any of the “external” “vicissitudes of life”: our gain or loss of reputation, employment, money, health, our pleasure or pain, praise and blame.

We can influence them but their outcome is ultimately 100% beyond our control:

the classic example is of an archer and her target, she can train, choose her bow, choose the arrows, choose her target, choose when to let go of the arrow (or everything that involves deliberate beliefs, values, goals and decision to act or not to act in the present moment.) After that nothing is up to her, not the gust of wind, the movement of her target or anything else that could make her miss.

Therefore, anything that is not something we can control, anything that is not our deliberate beliefs, values, goals and decision to act or not to act in the present moment is something that is “indifferent.”

We still value certain outcomes over other outcomes but they are ultimately indifferent and beyond our control, thus we attach the prefix: preferred, denoting that the outcome is valued or the prefix: dis-preferred, denoting that the outcome is not valued so much.

In all, there are “preferred indifferences” and “dis-preferred indifferences.” The goal is not to be indifferent to anything (in the negative sense), but to shift our locus of control to what we actually can control and therefore to where our attention is most effective, namely our deliberate beliefs, values, goals and decision to act or not to act in the present moment AKA our character and to accept the rest.

Stoicism is not a cold, emotionless turning away from society and social issues, it is the opposite. Stoics from the very beginning of Stoicism realized that we are social animals and therefor happiness and flourishing require us to be pro-social. They were so pro-social that they had a concept called cosmopolitanism, that we are all part of the same cosmos and therefor despite political parties, status, country, continent or planet, we treat each other with respect and fight for each other to flourish and be happy.

The Serenity Prayer is:

“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.”

The Shantideva version is:

“If there's a remedy when trouble strikes,
What reason is there for dejection?
And if there is no help for it,
What use is there in being glum?”

I feel like Dogen was trying to get at the sense of only being able to control some things in Genjokoan with:

“blossoms fall (even though we love them), and weeds spread (even though we dislike them)”

Stoicism is a tool that shines a light on what can control and can’t control.

This is all a wordy way to say it is wise to focus on this verse from the Dhammapada:

Avoid evil
Do good
Cleanse the mind

That is the end of my “PowerPoint” presentation hope you enjoyed.

PS For the nit picky, I am not suggesting that Soto Zen is 100% based in Virtue Ethics (ethics that emphasize personal character over outcomes or commandments) as there are the Precepts (which is complicated because they are not the same as “commandments”) someone else that is much smarter and has a training in philosophy can discuss and parse the differences between Stoicism and Soto Zen, I am only trying to note the benefits of Stoicism.

Gassho,
Tom
SAT/Lah

I think using stoicism or zen Buddhism for that matter to manage career success and personal gain is a great thing, ( Silicon valley types, firefighters, artists, military leaders, stay at home parents, athletes or otherwise) I think you may be correct in suggesting something may have been twisted, though i'm not certain that is a bad thing. I am told that modern therapy methods such as cognitive behavioral therapy was largely influenced by the early stoics, though many things did not seem to carry over (the emphasis on personal virtue for one). These are just my observations and I could be completely wrong.

At it's core, I find it to be much more straightforward and accessible then Zen Buddhsim (for a simpleton like me that is.) That is not a criticism by any means.

Though many similarities exist, I find it quite difficult to manage two philosophical structures by which to live my life. I'm not able to explain why as of yet.

Gassho, Kyotai
ST

[Tom A.]

Zen Stoicism

I think using stoicism or zen Buddhism for that matter to manage career success and personal gain is a great thing, ( Silicon valley types, firefighters, artists, military leaders, stay at home parents, athletes or otherwise) I think you may be correct in suggesting something may have been twisted, though i'm not certain that is a bad thing. I am told that modern therapy methods such as cognitive behavioral therapy was largely influenced by the early stoics, though many things did not seem to carry over (the emphasis on personal virtue for one). These are just my observations and I could be completely wrong.

At it's core, I find it to be much more straightforward and accessible then Zen Buddhsim (for a simpleton like me that is.) That is not a criticism by any means.

Though many similarities exist, I find it quite difficult to manage two philosophical structures by which to live my life. I'm not able to explain why as of yet.

Gassho, Kyotai
ST

I’m glad you liked my post

Don’t get me wrong, I understand the primacy of Shikantaza. This might sound pretentious because I’ve only been practicing Soto Zen for about four years but from what I understand Soto Zen both is and is not a philosophy by which to live your life in the western sense but is dharma or truth itself. It’s a deeply felt, to the marrow understanding of the wholeness of the universe. Radical equanimity and all that Jundo talks about. As well as change and working to make the world a more beautiful place.

I view the core of Soto Zen simply to be Shikantaza Zazen, the Bodhisatttva vows, Dogen the main proponent, that a Soto Zen practitioner go deep into Soto Zen and only Soto Zen, that the wisdom and goodness we seek is already in us and that too much thinking, thought and philosophizing ties a person into knots... after that, whatever practical truth, wisdom, virtue and clarity from any source is a good thing and can’t hurt as long as we are actively using it to make the world a more beautiful place. Soto Zen is not dogma in the sense that Abrahamic religions are

Gassho,
Tom
Sat/Lah


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Tom A.]

Thank you! I really enjoyed reading that!

And because I get so few chances to make use of my classical Greek from my Uni days the Greek word usually translated as "indifferent" is ἀπάθεια. We get the word "apathy" from it, but it was used to mean indifferent, without suffering. I kinda think you could translate it as equanimity, but since apathy is a negation, without pathos, indifference, seeing things without difference, might capture the sense better.

Thanks again for your great post!

Gassho,
Jim
STlah

Gassho,
Tom
Sat/Lah



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Jakuden]

It all sounds so right, and lovely to read...
Yet to be a "monk with unbothered mind" takes our wholehearted practice. I have everything I need, and live in luxury compared to these wise old masters... and yet there are times that the mind just kicks and screams like a toddler, and stoicism wavers.


Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Tom A.]

It all sounds so right, and lovely to read...
Yet to be a "monk with unbothered mind" takes our wholehearted practice. I have everything I need, and live in luxury compared to these wise old masters... and yet there are times that the mind just kicks and screams like a toddler, and stoicism wavers.


Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

You and me both.

Luckily for us in Shikantaza Zazen there is no Stoic ideal of Sagehood to attain.

Gassho
Tom,
Sat/Lah

[Shonin]

Tom, I agree with your view here :

I view the core of Soto Zen simply to be Shikantaza Zazen, the Bodhisatttva vows, Dogen the main proponent, that a Soto Zen practitioner go deep into Soto Zen and only Soto Zen, that the wisdom and goodness we seek is already in us and that too much thinking, thought and philosophizing ties a person into knots... after that, whatever practical truth, wisdom, virtue and clarity from any source is a good thing and can’t hurt as long as we are actively using it to make the world a more beautiful place. Soto Zen is not dogma in the sense that Abrahamic religions are.

That "core" you speak of is how I have been practicing over the years ( for awhile i didn't sit for private reasons) But lately i seem to want to fall in line beyond the basics. Deepen my database of zenology and strive harder to live by it.

Dave
SAT/LAH

[Tairin]

Interesting discussion. Thank you.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Tai Shi]

Thich Nhat Hanh becomes the Zen equivalent of Being at the moment as he describes the relevant nature in Being Peace. I smile and I 'become the smile.' "We need people who can sit still and be able to smile, who can walk peacefully. We need people like that in order to save us. Mahayana Buddhism says that you are that person, that each of you is that person." I have been a patient in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy since 2011, I have learned that I have choices for fictions or stories. I can chose to be angry over bygone traumatic days, which invade my 'now as a story, or fiction,' or I can chose now, a real being in the moment of just accepting what happens right now, in this moment. I can chose to smile, and I can chose another 'fiction of peace,' a more satisfying choice? If I chose peace, or to smile, is it logical that I feel better? I have that choice in each moment, and this stoic approach to my survival is another way of 'falling off the cliff where hungry tigers wait below to devour me, and I hang on to a root bearly avoiding the fall. There is next to me a strawberry growing, a delicious fruit, fully ready to be plucked with my hand. However, I am going to fall in any event. Do I pluck the delicious strawberry and eat it thereby hastening my fall, or do I wait for the root to give way. In other words do I accept the tragedy of my death which is reality, or do I eat the strawberry enjoying my last moments. Ah to eat that fruit so succulent and delicious, and let myself die anyway. Which choice do I have in the moment, to enjoy my last moment, smile, and fall, or wait extending my pain?' I can accept the fiction of my past trauma, or history, or in this moment, do I smile, and continue on in that moment? Jundo has been trying to teach me this. This morning I backed into my daughter's cat at 5:00, and tried to feed her. I had created distrust, so I walked away lettering her eat by herself becaust I had hurt her albiet accidently. Now I type to you sitting in the easy chair, an activity she familiar with and trusts. She sleeps on a cushion next to me. I choose to wait. I ate my breakfast, and now I enjoy this lovely, longhaired Ms Cat, Alana, and I can let this moment be. I smile. This will take time to enjoy full acceptance again, but I know this possibility. I have chosem and she sleeps. I live in this reality of my smile, my acceptance of my past accident, now history, and know that something better now is my choice. I find peace for myself. I accept sitting here, enjoying you, and talking on my electronic paper, different than disappointment, or I disturb this cat. Which have I chosen? When I just sit, Shikantaza, do I focus on my upset stomach ache of an hour ago, or even now or do I sit now, only sit, just chose to sit, accept my stomach. Perhaps the next moment's fiction a tragedy, thinking of my past upset stomach i CAN CHOSE, AND SIT WITHOUT, JUST SIT EVEN WITHOUT HOPE. i LET THE STOMACH BE WHAT IT IS, AND i SIT IN THIS UPSET MOMENT. Can I smile? Can I do nothing?
Gassho
sat/lah
Taishi