Zen Stoicism

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  • Tom A.
    Member
    • May 2020
    • 255

    #31
    Zen Stoicism

    Originally posted by Tai Shi
    Thich Nhat Hanh becomes the Zen equivalent of Being at the moment as he describes the relevant nature in Being Peace. I smile and I 'become the smile.' "We need people who can sit still and be able to smile, who can walk peacefully. We need people like that in order to save us. Mahayana Buddhism says that you are that person, that each of you is that person." I have been a patient in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy since 2011, I have learned that I have choices for fictions or stories. I can chose to be angry over bygone traumatic days, which invade my 'now as a story, or fiction,' or I can chose now, a real being in the moment of just accepting what happens right now, in this moment. I can chose to smile, and I can chose another 'fiction of peace,' a more satisfying choice? If I chose peace, or to smile, is it logical that I feel better? I have that choice in each moment, and this stoic approach to my survival is another way of 'falling off the cliff where hungry tigers wait below to devour me, and I hang on to a root bearly avoiding the fall. There is next to me a strawberry growing, a delicious fruit, fully ready to be plucked with my hand. However, I am going to fall in any event. Do I pluck the delicious strawberry and eat it thereby hastening my fall, or do I wait for the root to give way. In other words do I accept the tragedy of my death which is reality, or do I eat the strawberry enjoying my last moments. Ah to eat that fruit so succulent and delicious, and let myself die anyway. Which choice do I have in the moment, to enjoy my last moment, smile, and fall, or wait extending my pain?' I can accept the fiction of my past trauma, or history, or in this moment, do I smile, and continue on in that moment? Jundo has been trying to teach me this. This morning I backed into my daughter's cat at 5:00, and tried to feed her. I had created distrust, so I walked away lettering her eat by herself becaust I had hurt her albiet accidently. Now I type to you sitting in the easy chair, an activity she familiar with and trusts. She sleeps on a cushion next to me. I choose to wait. I ate my breakfast, and now I enjoy this lovely, longhaired Ms Cat, Alana, and I can let this moment be. I smile. This will take time to enjoy full acceptance again, but I know this possibility. I have chosem and she sleeps. I live in this reality of my smile, my acceptance of my past accident, now history, and know that something better now is my choice. I find peace for myself. I accept sitting here, enjoying you, and talking on my electronic paper, different than disappointment, or I disturb this cat. Which have I chosen? When I just sit, Shikantaza, do I focus on my upset stomach ache of an hour ago, or even now or do I sit now, only sit, just chose to sit, accept my stomach. Perhaps the next moment's fiction a tragedy, thinking of my past upset stomach i CAN CHOSE, AND SIT WITHOUT, JUST SIT EVEN WITHOUT HOPE. i LET THE STOMACH BE WHAT IT IS, AND i SIT IN THIS UPSET MOMENT. Can I smile? Can I do nothing?
    Gassho
    sat/lah
    Taishi


    I love that you brought up your day to day struggles because now I realize the key similarity between Stoicism and Soto Zen (Jundo has mentioned this so many times that I can’t believe I’ve had such a brain fart. It’s my “duh” moment.)

    The key similarity between Soto Zen and Stoicism is (drum roll)...

    That we have to deal with reality as it is here and now and not some idealized head in the sand version of it.

    From the book ‘A Heart to Heart Chat on Buddhism with Old Master Gudo Nishijima’:

    “Sekishin: So, which religions do you consider emphasize action? What do you mean by that?

    Gudo: This refers to those religions that just call for us to be, to live and act here and now, while simultaneously accepting this world as it is, just as it is here and now, without appealing to some other world that is somehow better, more ideal. Because all such teachings ask of us is to be, to act here and now, in this very world in which we are living here and now, I call such philosophies religions of action. Buddhism is such an existential religion.”

    However, Nishijima goes on to say the following and especially the part I emphasize with italics and bold is unique to Buddhism and to Soto Zen specifically (although modern Stoicism has borrowed the phrase “Amor Fati”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amor_fati from Nietzsche, “Amor Fati” is a close cousin to what Nishijima is talking about here, I personally love the Nietzsche quote “all idealism is mendacity in the face of what is necessary”):

    “On the other hand, while Buddhism calls upon us to fully accept, to merely observe without judgment this world in which we are living, still, Buddhism need not be a philosophy of passivity. We need not but sit in bliss upon our lotus leaf, watching life pass us by. While fully accepting the world, while fully not wishing that the world were any other way than just the way it is, simultaneously and from yet another perspective, we are most free to act, live and choose as we think best, with wisdom and compassion. We need not be passive, but can live our lives abundantly, moving forward, all the while knowing that we are always just here, that there is no place ultimately to go other than where we are. In this way, it is a religion of action. And, again, equally important is the further perspective that in our acting, in our living, it is but the world which acts and lives as we act and live, for we are each but a facet of the world, an expression of the whole of reality without separation. In this stance, all concepts of subject and object are put aside, and our lives and the functioning of all reality constitute a single great activity, one great functioning. Thus, because we view the world as acting by and through each of us without separation or division, it is a religion of action. So, just being, living and acting is sacred, a sacred act, in and of itself. We can even try to better the world as best we can, while hand-in-hand recognizing the world as perfectly just what it is. Because we can live, must live and act even as we accept, so it is a religion of action.”






    Gassho,
    Tom

    Sat/Lah


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
    Last edited by Tom A.; 02-04-2021, 07:31 PM.
    “Do what’s hard to do when it is the right thing to do.”- Robert Sopalsky

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    • Jundo
      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
      • Apr 2006
      • 41216

      #32
      Well, we have to use "reality" carefully in Buddhism, because it is a basic Mahayana 101 teaching that, to one degree or another, we are all living in a mind created dream. Even something seemingly as solid and obvious as the chair you are sitting on is just some configuration of molecules in a configuration that your mind processes and labels as "chair" with some associated function personal to you (an ant crawling across it is probably not seeing a "chair" there at all. We seem to share the concept and name "chair" with all our fellow butt possessing humans, so it is like a shared delusion, but a jelly space visitor who does not "sit" would have difficulty to see it.) Even "comfortable" chair is a matter of your own personal butt and mind, not a characteristic inherent in the molecules themselves. Thus we are all living in our own personal "reality" which is, at the same time, a shared delusion and dream. We have no choice so long as we are alive as human beings feeling and living like isolated beings ... each with his or her own personal butt).

      Master Dogen would say that it is all a dream, but it is OUR dream, so dream it well. Dream a peaceful, non-violent, accepting and flowing with conditions dream.

      (I know that it is hard with this conversation, and I am violating too, but we should also do our best to honor the "shoot for about three sentences" request as best we can, not getting tangled in our own thoughts and words ... about thoughts and words. )

      Dear All, In Zen, it is important to untangle from our complex thoughts, simplify views and hold opinions lightly. As one practice in doing so, I am requesting that our members try to limit their Forum comments to about, more or less, three (3) well-chosen and heartfelt sentences. The purpose is to cause people to consider


      Gassho, J

      STLah
      Last edited by Jundo; 02-05-2021, 01:48 AM.
      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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      • JimInBC
        Member
        • Jan 2021
        • 125

        #33
        Originally posted by Jundo
        we should also do our best to honor the "shoot for about three sentences" request
        Dogen sees Avalokiteshvara
        Jundo the personal butt
        What do you see in your dream?

        Gassho,
        Jim
        stlah
        Last edited by JimInBC; 02-06-2021, 12:36 AM.
        No matter how much zazen we do, poor people do not become wealthy, and poverty does not become something easy to endure.
        Kōshō Uchiyama, Opening the Hand of Thought

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        • Tai Shi
          Member
          • Oct 2014
          • 3482

          #34
          It is another day, and another time. I listen to the powerful music from a film score, this is now, and the music fully portrays tragedy, mixed with hope, Hope is hinted as only a possibility is this liner progression of notes. Because I am Western man, familiar with movies, and Westerm Music, also a Soto Zen prationer, I now listen to the turning modulation of full hope. I knew this was coming because through my senses of now of listening with my physical ears I am turning away from my past fiction. I can predict this hope. Now am the music as it plays with my hope. I know more positive times come because through music, I live fully in the now. Now the great full beat takes me into hope and my other senses engage. I want to cry as my emotions engage and I hear the power of now. The music begines to fluctuate with great risie much louder. I feel the trumpet flourish. I know we arrive, and good things happens in this movie. Even if I were blind, I am fully in the now. Music rises as it slowlyfalls in this moment; then it rises up again, and I know I am moving toward an ending. I am engaged with my sense of an ending. I am in the now as a great cymbol rolls with drum, and trombone hope plods and rises again with sudden fall. I am quietly filled with hope. I know we age arrived. I know action in the movie as it turnes from tragedy to the affifmation of good; hope is one with good. One last rise of notes comes up with care and understanding we are here. we have arrived and base instruments proclaim NOW, THE GOOD, voices of strong men joint instruments; then quiet comes. I am again at the reality of NOW! We are here and the final movement comes with one last rise. Women and men sing. Full chorus sings and plays with all instruments as everyone proclains now. Then trumpets and women, and the violins are not just hope. Good is proclaimed with chorus and the positive in minor key mixed with minor. Quieter then louder, music brings on all good now. Good is now, and trumpets play the great fanfare, They fall off with drumbs sounding. Superman has risen from the dead and stands strong and tall for a last moment. Words have told me this is superman, Music stops. It is good. This is the now of Western Music and Film score as Superman now falls to death, and I know it is The Death of Superman because words have told me. Thinking is now. His final great surge comes now because I know the title of this film. With music, I have lived in the now. This is existentential of modern linear Western Film Music has let me leave the fiction of my pain, and I choose with hearing to live in the now. Death is life, life is death, Reality is fiction, fiction is realith. Form is space, and space is not Form. I have left film fiction of bad and I am now in good there is less pain, and it is good. I can tell you that when I began to listen to this music, I was in much arthritis pain, TODAY in this now, great pain from my arthritis invaded my upper back into my neck and skull. Now my pain has growen less. I am happy and smiling. This is the good of now for me. I have chosen to pluck the delicious fruit, the strawberry, before I fall to my death, I can tell you that in the last 24 hous I have sat, quietly into nothingness. Out of this I chose to eat the strawberry. However for me sitting was not now. It has been music, and now I feel less pain. Music will not work for me if I cannot hear it, or if it means nothing to me, but for me, this is better than a drug. I will sit again in 10 minutes. All combines. I am free of pain for a while. Now evem 20 minutes later I feel only pressure and less pain.
          Gassho
          sat/lah
          Taishi
          Last edited by Tai Shi; 02-06-2021, 04:45 PM. Reason: Word choice, grammar, and spelling
          Peaceful, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, for positive poetry 優婆塞 台 婆

          Comment

          • Jundo
            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
            • Apr 2006
            • 41216

            #35
            I would like to remind everyone (although we all widely overstep sometimes, me too) of ...

            A Request to Sangha Members: "Three Sacred Sentences" Practice

            If you can.

            There are some sections of the Forum, such as the Arts section and "How to be Sick" section where it does not apply, but otherwise it is easy for all of us to get lost in words and thoughts.

            Gassho, Jundo

            STLah
            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

            Comment

            • Tai Shi
              Member
              • Oct 2014
              • 3482

              #36
              My apologies. My language is getting harder, and harder to follow. Let it be said, said, My instrument was my voice. Yesterday, it is gone we live at the moment. I am peace, I am being Peace, and Jundo is right; two or three sentences, or they become difficult to read. I am (was) ready to sit Zazenkai.
              Gassho
              sat/ lah I sat this morning from 8:06 (late for Sunday, but really was sitting.) until 9:43.
              Taishi
              Last edited by Tai Shi; 02-07-2021, 03:54 PM. Reason: concision, spelling.
              Peaceful, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, for positive poetry 優婆塞 台 婆

              Comment

              • Onkai
                Senior Priest-in-Training
                • Aug 2015
                • 3190

                #37
                I never tried using music to deal with pain, but when I returned to college, I used music to transform anxiety and paranoia. This is one album that helped me a great deal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkSuDn6Qvus

                Gassho,
                Onkai
                Sat/lah
                美道 Bidou Beautiful Way
                恩海 Onkai Merciful/Kind Ocean

                I have a lot to learn; take anything I say that sounds like teaching with a grain of salt.

                Comment

                • Kyotai

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Onkai
                  I never tried using music to deal with pain, but when I returned to college, I used music to transform anxiety and paranoia. This is one album that helped me a great deal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkSuDn6Qvus

                  Gassho,
                  Onkai
                  Sat/lah
                  I've enjoyed Bands such as "Hammock" "Explosions in the sky" and Hans Zimmer for similar purpose.

                  Gassho, Kyotai

                  Comment

                  • Tai Shi
                    Member
                    • Oct 2014
                    • 3482

                    #39
                    Zen Stoicism

                    I have a collection of albums spanning centuries of music. From Plainsong to early 2100 cent. I’ve collected albums form folk to New Age, to every period of classical to most vocals ( a bit short of Opera) My collection may be as large as 40 days of continuous listening. I’ve been collecting since I was 16-yr-old though converted my collection entirely to CD about 1997. Been collecting CDs since 1985. Gave away hours of taped music mostly replaced with CDs in 2007. I can listen to hundreds of albums on a popular cloud which I’ve maintained since 2008 near its inception. Jundo I have also sung many of these types and periods from 1967 to 2005 in high school, college, and amateur theatre, operetta and church. Two years of vocal training including solo work and lead roles. All State vocal chorus. I know this exceeds three lines Jundo, but I just wanted to show my complete commitment to music. Even much Jazz.
                    Gassho
                    sat/ lah
                    Tai Shi


                    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
                    Last edited by Tai Shi; 02-09-2021, 10:55 AM.
                    Peaceful, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, for positive poetry 優婆塞 台 婆

                    Comment

                    • Tai Shi
                      Member
                      • Oct 2014
                      • 3482

                      #40
                      My minor in college was music.
                      Gassho
                      sat/ lah
                      Tai Shi


                      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
                      Peaceful, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, for positive poetry 優婆塞 台 婆

                      Comment

                      • Kyōsen
                        Member
                        • Aug 2019
                        • 311

                        #41
                        Originally posted by StoBird
                        Stoicism has a very interesting concept called “indifference” and its not as negative as it sounds at first glance (I don’t know what the Greek and Latin original of “indifference” or any other of these words is and am too lazy to look them up at the moment.) let me explain:

                        It’s very much the serenity prayer but more specific: there are things that we can control and things that we can’t control.

                        The things that we can control are our deliberate judgments, beliefs, values, goals and decision to act or not to act in the present moment.

                        That is it.
                        I have seen some in Buddhism talk about how we don't really have a concept of "free will" so any notions of "control" are pretty silly right from the get-go. What we do have, however, is some measure of influence over the conditions we find ourselves in. We can influence where our attention goes, and that that shifting of attention sets in motion other changes that lead to new decisions, different choices, and hopefully liberation for those who seek it.

                        Gassho
                        Kyōsen
                        Sat|LAH
                        橋川
                        kyō (bridge) | sen (river)

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                        • Tom A.
                          Member
                          • May 2020
                          • 255

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Kyōsen
                          I have seen some in Buddhism talk about how we don't really have a concept of "free will" so any notions of "control" are pretty silly right from the get-go. What we do have, however, is some measure of influence over the conditions we find ourselves in. We can influence where our attention goes, and that that shifting of attention sets in motion other changes that lead to new decisions, different choices, and hopefully liberation for those who seek it.

                          Gassho

                          Kyōsen
                          Sat|LAH
                          There are different forms of “free will.” Buddhists very much believe in free will. Buddhists believe in anatta “non-self” and karma which is different from free will/determinism. Dogen said something along the lines of that we are always on the knifes edge of choice.

                          Where would you find “influence over the conditions” if not in deliberate judgements, beliefs, values, goals and the decision to act or not? Cognitive-behavioral psychology can prove this to some extent. Let’s take emotion for instance, when there is a painful emotion present and the emotion doesn’t fit the facts of the situation, then one or more logically distorted thoughts will always be present also. When you catch yourself in a situation where you are experiencing a painful emotion and that emotion doesn’t fit the facts, then you can deliberately challenge your irrational distorted thought(s) thereby attenuating the painful emotion. If that turns out to be a practical illusion, then so be it.

                          (Sorry for way over three)

                          Tom
                          Gassho
                          Sat/Lah
                          Last edited by Tom A.; 02-09-2021, 04:26 PM.
                          “Do what’s hard to do when it is the right thing to do.”- Robert Sopalsky

                          Comment

                          • Suuko
                            Member
                            • May 2017
                            • 406

                            #43
                            Originally posted by StoBird
                            There are different forms of “free will.” Buddhists very much believe in free will. Buddhists believe in anatta “non-self” and karma which is different from free will/determinism. Dogen said something along the lines of that we are always on the knifes edge of choice.

                            Where would you find “influence over the conditions” if not in deliberate judgements, beliefs, values, goals and the decision to act or not? Cognitive-behavioral psychology can prove this to some extent. Let’s take emotion for instance, when there is a painful emotion present and the emotion doesn’t fit the facts of the situation, then a logically distorted thought will always be present. When you catch yourself in a situation where you are experiencing a painful emotion and that emotion doesn’t fit the facts, then you can deliberately challenge your irrational thoughts thereby attenuating the painful emotion. If that turns out to be a practical illusion, then so be it.

                            (Sorry for way over three)

                            Tom
                            Gassho
                            Sat/Lah
                            Indeed. Through Zazen or mindfulness meditation, we just look at thoughts as thoughts and are not necessarily ours.

                            Gassho,
                            Sat today,
                            Geerish.

                            Sent from my PAR-LX1M using Tapatalk
                            Has been known as Guish since 2017 on the forum here.

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                            • Tom A.
                              Member
                              • May 2020
                              • 255

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Guish
                              Indeed. Through Zazen or mindfulness meditation, we just look at thoughts as thoughts and are not necessarily ours.

                              Gassho,
                              Sat today,
                              Geerish.


                              Sent from my PAR-LX1M using Tapatalk
                              “Skillful means” can take many forms, sometimes there is a time to look at thoughts and sometimes there is a time to challenge them.



                              Gassho
                              Tom,
                              Sat/lah
                              Last edited by Tom A.; 02-09-2021, 04:33 PM.
                              “Do what’s hard to do when it is the right thing to do.”- Robert Sopalsky

                              Comment

                              • Suuko
                                Member
                                • May 2017
                                • 406

                                #45
                                Originally posted by StoBird
                                “Skillful means” can take many forms, sometimes there is a time to look at thoughts and sometimes there is a time to challenge them.



                                Tom,
                                Sat/lah
                                Indeed. Sometimes we get surprised by the thoughts that pop up. It's a good way to really see what's under the hood.

                                Gassho,
                                Geerish.

                                Sent from my PAR-LX1M using Tapatalk
                                Has been known as Guish since 2017 on the forum here.

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