Zen Stoicism

[Tom A.]

Ah, I see where you’re going with this but with the same logic “I” don’t have control of attention itself.

I’m gonna let you in on what I really believe: it’s all happening on its own for if “I” existed then there would be a homunculus behind the “I” and a homunculus behind that homunculus, behind that one etc... homuncules all the way down... and if I truly believe in philosophical naturalism, that everything has a natural cause, then nothing happens uncaused in a vacuum including “myself” and what “I” think “I” can “control.” But on a conceptual level, yes, “paying attention” to what “I” have “control” over is all “I” can “do.” I’m gonna retire from being so chatty, even I’m sick of my own bloviating. Let’s sit.

Gassho
Tom
Sat/Lah

[Kyōsen]

There are different forms of “free will.” Buddhists very much believe in free will. Buddhists believe in anatta “non-self” and karma which is different from free will/determinism. Dogen said something along the lines of that we are always on the knifes edge of choice.

Where would you find “influence over the conditions” if not in deliberate judgements, beliefs, values, goals and the decision to act or not? Cognitive-behavioral psychology can prove this to some extent. Let’s take emotion for instance, when there is a painful emotion present and the emotion doesn’t fit the facts of the situation, then one or more logically distorted thoughts will always be present also. When you catch yourself in a situation where you are experiencing a painful emotion and that emotion doesn’t fit the facts, then you can deliberately challenge your irrational distorted thought(s) thereby attenuating the painful emotion. If that turns out to be a practical illusion, then so be it.

(Sorry for way over three)

Tom
Gassho
Sat/Lah

I can't help but think of neurological experiments wherein someone is wired up to a brain scanning device of some kind and then told to press a button before it lights up. The button lights up when the device detects that the brain has decided to press it. The experiment consistently shows that the decision to press the button is made seconds before someone becomes consciously aware of the choice. They believe "they" are the ones who decided to push the button but, in reality, the decision was already made.

Outside of the world of neuroscience, when we look at the mental aggregates and their facts, they are all under the influence of karma. They are reactions to reactions to reactions. So one might ask "if it's all just reactions, what do we actually have any influence over?" What choices do we actually have? I think that's why some Buddhist monks over the centuries have said that we have influence over where our attention goes which is actually tremendously potent if you think about it. Whatever you choose to pay attention to is what gets your effort: perception, feeling, judgement, action, etc.

So if we choose to focus on our loved ones instead of mainstream news, that's going to reflect in our emotional and physical sense of well-being and what we spend most of our efforts on, as an example. This is related to why people who quit social media tend to report increased self-esteem and sense of well-being; their attention is being re-directed away from something toxic and unrealistic and "other" to what is actually present in their lives, what is "real", and what they can actually do something about. Which isn't to say all social media is bad, of course - it's a tool, really, and like any tool if you use it improperly then you could end up hurting yourself (and not all tools are appropriate for all jobs).

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

[Tom A.]

Indeed. Sometimes we get surprised by the thoughts that pop up. It's a good way to really see what's under the hood.

Gassho,
Geerish.

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I don’t think there is an either/or in terms of emotional regulation vs watching emotion pass. It’s a balance for me. Some things I keep in mind (I not only majorly geek out over this but really hope it will help others as I wish I had learned about this stuff many years ago):

Thoughts and emotions are just secretions of the brain, let them go

AND

Sometimes we need to check the facts when emotion is intense,

There is criteria that needs to be met in order for an emotion to “fit the facts”:

1. it’s appropriate- the emotion is appropriate in the situation (ie you don’t feel extatic joy when you roll your car, unless it’s to be alive),

2. it’s useful (effective)- the emotion is useful in some way (ie it gets you and/or others to behave in an appropriate way, not willfully),

3. and it’s duration and intensity (not too intense, not too long)- the emotion is not too intense and doesn’t outlive its appropriateness and usefulness.

If this criteria is not met for a present emotion then there is always a distortion or fallacy of thought present too. To further complicate things, there is no “right” way to think, feel or act in a given situation, only emotions, thoughts and actions that “fit the facts” or not.

http://edencounseling.com/resources/dbt-emotional-regulation-group-4-handouts.pdf

Gassho,
Tom
SAT/Lah

[Suuko]

“Skillful means” can take many forms, sometimes there is a time to look at thoughts and sometimes there is a time to challenge them.



Tom,
Sat/lah

Indeed. Sometimes we get surprised by the thoughts that pop up. It's a good way to really see what's under the hood.

Gassho,
Geerish.

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[Tom A.]

Indeed. Through Zazen or mindfulness meditation, we just look at thoughts as thoughts and are not necessarily ours.

Gassho,
Sat today,
Geerish.


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“Skillful means” can take many forms, sometimes there is a time to look at thoughts and sometimes there is a time to challenge them.



Gassho
Tom,
Sat/lah

[Suuko]

There are different forms of “free will.” Buddhists very much believe in free will. Buddhists believe in anatta “non-self” and karma which is different from free will/determinism. Dogen said something along the lines of that we are always on the knifes edge of choice.

Where would you find “influence over the conditions” if not in deliberate judgements, beliefs, values, goals and the decision to act or not? Cognitive-behavioral psychology can prove this to some extent. Let’s take emotion for instance, when there is a painful emotion present and the emotion doesn’t fit the facts of the situation, then a logically distorted thought will always be present. When you catch yourself in a situation where you are experiencing a painful emotion and that emotion doesn’t fit the facts, then you can deliberately challenge your irrational thoughts thereby attenuating the painful emotion. If that turns out to be a practical illusion, then so be it.

(Sorry for way over three)

Tom
Gassho
Sat/Lah

Indeed. Through Zazen or mindfulness meditation, we just look at thoughts as thoughts and are not necessarily ours.

Gassho,
Sat today,
Geerish.

Sent from my PAR-LX1M using Tapatalk

[Tom A.]

I have seen some in Buddhism talk about how we don't really have a concept of "free will" so any notions of "control" are pretty silly right from the get-go. What we do have, however, is some measure of influence over the conditions we find ourselves in. We can influence where our attention goes, and that that shifting of attention sets in motion other changes that lead to new decisions, different choices, and hopefully liberation for those who seek it.

Gassho

Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

There are different forms of “free will.” Buddhists very much believe in free will. Buddhists believe in anatta “non-self” and karma which is different from free will/determinism. Dogen said something along the lines of that we are always on the knifes edge of choice.

Where would you find “influence over the conditions” if not in deliberate judgements, beliefs, values, goals and the decision to act or not? Cognitive-behavioral psychology can prove this to some extent. Let’s take emotion for instance, when there is a painful emotion present and the emotion doesn’t fit the facts of the situation, then one or more logically distorted thoughts will always be present also. When you catch yourself in a situation where you are experiencing a painful emotion and that emotion doesn’t fit the facts, then you can deliberately challenge your irrational distorted thought(s) thereby attenuating the painful emotion. If that turns out to be a practical illusion, then so be it.

(Sorry for way over three)

Tom
Gassho
Sat/Lah

[Kyōsen]

Stoicism has a very interesting concept called “indifference” and its not as negative as it sounds at first glance (I don’t know what the Greek and Latin original of “indifference” or any other of these words is and am too lazy to look them up at the moment.) let me explain:

It’s very much the serenity prayer but more specific: there are things that we can control and things that we can’t control.

The things that we can control are our deliberate judgments, beliefs, values, goals and decision to act or not to act in the present moment.

That is it.

I have seen some in Buddhism talk about how we don't really have a concept of "free will" so any notions of "control" are pretty silly right from the get-go. What we do have, however, is some measure of influence over the conditions we find ourselves in. We can influence where our attention goes, and that that shifting of attention sets in motion other changes that lead to new decisions, different choices, and hopefully liberation for those who seek it.

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

[Tai Shi]

My minor in college was music.
Gassho
sat/ lah
Tai Shi


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[Tai Shi]

Zen Stoicism

I have a collection of albums spanning centuries of music. From Plainsong to early 2100 cent. I’ve collected albums form folk to New Age, to every period of classical to most vocals ( a bit short of Opera) My collection may be as large as 40 days of continuous listening. I’ve been collecting since I was 16-yr-old though converted my collection entirely to CD about 1997. Been collecting CDs since 1985. Gave away hours of taped music mostly replaced with CDs in 2007. I can listen to hundreds of albums on a popular cloud which I’ve maintained since 2008 near its inception. Jundo I have also sung many of these types and periods from 1967 to 2005 in high school, college, and amateur theatre, operetta and church. Two years of vocal training including solo work and lead roles. All State vocal chorus. I know this exceeds three lines Jundo, but I just wanted to show my complete commitment to music. Even much Jazz.
Gassho
sat/ lah
Tai Shi


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I never tried using music to deal with pain, but when I returned to college, I used music to transform anxiety and paranoia. This is one album that helped me a great deal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkSuDn6Qvus

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

I've enjoyed Bands such as "Hammock" "Explosions in the sky" and Hans Zimmer for similar purpose.

Gassho, Kyotai

[Onkai]

I never tried using music to deal with pain, but when I returned to college, I used music to transform anxiety and paranoia. This is one album that helped me a great deal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkSuDn6Qvus

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

[Tai Shi]

My apologies. My language is getting harder, and harder to follow. Let it be said, said, My instrument was my voice. Yesterday, it is gone we live at the moment. I am peace, I am being Peace, and Jundo is right; two or three sentences, or they become difficult to read. I am (was) ready to sit Zazenkai.
Gassho
sat/ lah I sat this morning from 8:06 (late for Sunday, but really was sitting.) until 9:43.
Taishi

[Jundo]

I would like to remind everyone (although we all widely overstep sometimes, me too) of ...

A Request to Sangha Members: "Three Sacred Sentences" Practice

If you can.

There are some sections of the Forum, such as the Arts section and "How to be Sick" section where it does not apply, but otherwise it is easy for all of us to get lost in words and thoughts.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Tai Shi]

It is another day, and another time. I listen to the powerful music from a film score, this is now, and the music fully portrays tragedy, mixed with hope, Hope is hinted as only a possibility is this liner progression of notes. Because I am Western man, familiar with movies, and Westerm Music, also a Soto Zen prationer, I now listen to the turning modulation of full hope. I knew this was coming because through my senses of now of listening with my physical ears I am turning away from my past fiction. I can predict this hope. Now am the music as it plays with my hope. I know more positive times come because through music, I live fully in the now. Now the great full beat takes me into hope and my other senses engage. I want to cry as my emotions engage and I hear the power of now. The music begines to fluctuate with great risie much louder. I feel the trumpet flourish. I know we arrive, and good things happens in this movie. Even if I were blind, I am fully in the now. Music rises as it slowlyfalls in this moment; then it rises up again, and I know I am moving toward an ending. I am engaged with my sense of an ending. I am in the now as a great cymbol rolls with drum, and trombone hope plods and rises again with sudden fall. I am quietly filled with hope. I know we age arrived. I know action in the movie as it turnes from tragedy to the affifmation of good; hope is one with good. One last rise of notes comes up with care and understanding we are here. we have arrived and base instruments proclaim NOW, THE GOOD, voices of strong men joint instruments; then quiet comes. I am again at the reality of NOW! We are here and the final movement comes with one last rise. Women and men sing. Full chorus sings and plays with all instruments as everyone proclains now. Then trumpets and women, and the violins are not just hope. Good is proclaimed with chorus and the positive in minor key mixed with minor. Quieter then louder, music brings on all good now. Good is now, and trumpets play the great fanfare, They fall off with drumbs sounding. Superman has risen from the dead and stands strong and tall for a last moment. Words have told me this is superman, Music stops. It is good. This is the now of Western Music and Film score as Superman now falls to death, and I know it is The Death of Superman because words have told me. Thinking is now. His final great surge comes now because I know the title of this film. With music, I have lived in the now. This is existentential of modern linear Western Film Music has let me leave the fiction of my pain, and I choose with hearing to live in the now. Death is life, life is death, Reality is fiction, fiction is realith. Form is space, and space is not Form. I have left film fiction of bad and I am now in good there is less pain, and it is good. I can tell you that when I began to listen to this music, I was in much arthritis pain, TODAY in this now, great pain from my arthritis invaded my upper back into my neck and skull. Now my pain has growen less. I am happy and smiling. This is the good of now for me. I have chosen to pluck the delicious fruit, the strawberry, before I fall to my death, I can tell you that in the last 24 hous I have sat, quietly into nothingness. Out of this I chose to eat the strawberry. However for me sitting was not now. It has been music, and now I feel less pain. Music will not work for me if I cannot hear it, or if it means nothing to me, but for me, this is better than a drug. I will sit again in 10 minutes. All combines. I am free of pain for a while. Now evem 20 minutes later I feel only pressure and less pain.
Gassho
sat/lah
Taishi