Purpose of a Zen teacher?

[aikoku tora]

Re: Purpose of a Zen teacher?

one warning about waraji....never step in a puddle, or snow with them if you dont want instantly wet feed, and or soggy wet grass smelling shoes...wore mine last winter going to pick up my son, and jyst briefly made contact with a puddle of melted ice, took 3 days for the waraji to dry out

[Nagaruda]

Re: Purpose of a Zen teacher?

Why did Babe Ruth Come to Yankee Stadium?

"The cypress tree grows in Madison Square Garden"

[Jundo]

Re: Purpose of a Zen teacher?

one warning about waraji....never step in a puddle, or snow with them if you dont want instantly wet feed, and or soggy wet grass smelling shoes...wore mine last winter going to pick up my son, and jyst briefly made contact with a puddle of melted ice, took 3 days for the waraji to dry out

Hi Aikoku,

Jikatabi ... waraji ...

I am curious as to why you wear all the traditional Japanese footware. Starting a new trend?

Gassho, J

[Longdog]

Re: Purpose of a Zen teacher?

Hey they look just like my wetsuit boots, cloven neoprene, may be I've been wearing mermonk sandals with out knowing it :lol:

Blub blub blub Kev

[Undo]

Re: Purpose of a Zen teacher?

I find these comfortable for kinhin









If that helps?

[Longdog]

Re: Purpose of a Zen teacher?

Nah, you get much better grounding with these...

Attached files

[Shindo]

Re: Purpose of a Zen teacher?

Hi Philip

how did you know?

Jools may read the question in England while eating his tea and think, "you know, I always wondered what type of socks zen monks wear"

- you must be psychic !!

Supplementary - "you know, I always wondered what type of undergarments zen monks wear?"

With laughter

Jools

[Bansho]

Re: Purpose of a Zen teacher?

Hi Philip, hi Jools,

Hi Philip

how did you know?

Jools may read the question in England while eating his tea and think, "you know, I always wondered what type of socks zen monks wear"

- you must be psychic !!

Supplementary - "you know, I always wondered what type of undergarments zen monks wear?"

With laughter

Jools

...Kenneth may read the question and answer at 16:30 at work sipping his tea, in Germany...

Yep, I got the spooks too. :shock: :lol: :lol:

Big brother is watching... :lol:

Gassho
Ken

[Jundo]

Re: Purpose of a Zen teacher?

Supplementary - "you know, I always wondered what type of undergarments zen monks wear?"

Same as a Scotsman.

Actually, fundoshi is traditional Japanese underwear. Here is how to put it on.

[disastermouse]

Re: Purpose of a Zen teacher?

And this just reminds me that I need to borrow the book and get in on the Precepts discussion...

Chet

[prg5001]

Re: Purpose of a Zen teacher?

Hi,

I still don't understand what my first zen teacher told me once, maybe someone can suggest something as it has stuck with me for over 25 years now.

I went to the London Buddhist Society when I was in university in the early '80s and went along to the zen class. I didn't really know how to sit and always left in quite a bit of pain. I didn't mind that so much but one day the teacher went around the room asking everyone why they came to the class. I answered, quite honestly, that I was looking for a bit more feeling of peace and quiet in my life. He replied back that I should come back in a few lifetimes. He then carried on round the room and one student answered that he came because he liked a nice cup of tea in the morning. The teacher then said that that was the sort of answer he was looking from us. I was confused and on my way home I felt angry and thought, "okay, I will go back in a few lifetimes" and never went back to that class again. The teacher died a few years after and I am still wondering why he said I should come back in a few lifetimes.

Did he give some kind of standard 'zen' type reply to me? I felt he was just looking for some kind of 'zen' answer from everyone and was highlighting the 'cup of tea' as the 'right' answer and my 'peace and quite' and a 'wrong' answer. But he was an old and well respected zen teacher and I was a young idealist so maybe I missed something.

Anyway, if anyone has any ideas of what he might of meant I would be interested to hear.

Many thanks,

Paul

[Jundo]

Re: Purpose of a Zen teacher?

Hi Paul,

It is hard to know the details from your short description, but it seems that the teacher meant that if you are looking for something (even something like a bit of peace and quiet), it will take you lifetimes to find. Perhaps the teacher was a believer in some traditional form of Buddhist post-mortem rebirth, perhaps the teacher just meant it figuratively ... that as long as you were looking, you were like a dog chasing after its own tail, and it would take lifetimes to catch). Perhaps a bit of both. I can only guess.

Zen code words like" "just a cup of tea" usually are pretty cheap references to something like "things just as they are" or "nothing special" or "just this". Kind of cheap Zen speak, copied from reading too many old Zen stories.

Anyway, I am just guessing.

Who was the teacher, and what lineage was he from. Do you recall?

[prg5001]

Re: Purpose of a Zen teacher?

Hi,

I forget his name, I believe he was a peer of christmas Humpreys in the Buddhist Society at that time.

Your explanation of the terms does sound convincing and maybe he didn't really mean for me to come back in a few lifetimes. I suppose I should have asked him then but if karma and rebirth is the way it is often described then I will get my chance later.

Thanks,

Paul

[Jundo]

Re: Purpose of a Zen teacher?

Hi Paul,

Back in Christmas Humpheys' day, in the 50's and 60's when there was limited information on Zen, few translations and yet little detailed scholarship, there were plenty of misconceptions, "more Zen than Zen" stereotypes and such. D.T.Suzuki (not be be confused with Shunryu Suzuki of San Francisco Zen Center) was about all anyone had to go on, and his writings are most romantic and idealized, to say the least. The fellows at the Buddhist Society (Alan Watts, the Beats and all the rest too) did the best they could with what they were exposed to.

(On a side note, many Zen folks, even now, have a very traditional view of Rebirth. Depends on the teacher.)

By the way, I happened to come across something interesting today in a book by Prof. Steve Heine (a friend and one of the great Dogen historians and scholars). This may be of some interest to Jordan, Harry and some of the other real "Dogen Dogs" who hang around here. One of the key phrases upon which Dogen based his insight, the "trigger" for his great awakening in China, may have been either (1) Dogen misunderstanding what his teacher, Ju-Ching, was saying due to Dogen's bad Chinese, or (2) Dogen's intentional twisting by poetic license with his teacher's phrase in order to overcome some weakness in it. In any event, the student Dogen seems not to accurately recount what his teacher said.

[According to professor Takasaki Jikido] the term "casting off body and mind" (shinjin-datsuraku) never appears in the works of Ju-ching, Dogen's master. Another expression "casting off the mind's dust" (shinjin-datsuraku) does appear, however, though just once. It is possible, therefore, that Dogen may have understood Ju-ching's "casting off the mind's dust" as "casting off body and mind." When we consider the fact that these two expressions are homophonous in Japanese..., it is not too far-fetched to think that he may have hit upon this central idea of "casting off body and mind" by way of homophonous association, whichin turn triggered his religio-philosophical imagination.

You can read more here on this (page 130)
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZmIOZQ ... #PPA130,M1
and here (page 74)
http://books.google.com/books?id=pHFJpe ... A#PPA74,M1

If Ju-Ching said one, and not the other, it is interesting for several arcane (but important) reasons related to Buddhist philosophy. It is a bit like finding out that Descartes actually said "I am therefore I think", instead of what is attributed to him. On the other hand, it does not mean that Dogen was "wrong" in his interpretation, just that Dogen found his own personal way to express his taste of enlightenment (even if the words were not his teacher's in fact).

In this way, Buddhist teaching is quite a bit like cake baking. There are many tasty ways to bake and frost a cake, all delicious and expressing the very same sweetness ... even if different chefs will learn to bake their cakes a bit differently from their teachers. It is still all the same sugar and frosting.

Got my point somewhere in there? In the end, learn from good teachers ... but bake your own cake.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jinho]

Re: Purpose of a Zen teacher?

It is said that, at a certain point, we must "Kill the Buddha", which means to have confidence in our understanding, make the teaching our own. But, on the other hand, we must not be like the fellow who reads one Zen book and thinks he's "got it". One must know the important difference.

Generally, it is very dangerous (for the long term ... not for stretches here and there) to pursue Zen Practice without a competent teacher and healthy Sangha.

Gassho, Jundo (Your Student)

Hi Jundo,

Actually, the "kill the buddha" is about believing that enlightenment is in someone/somewhere else. This is related to the question and answer koan - student asks "what is buddha?", roshi answers "This mind is not buddha?"

As for it being dangerous, you seem to often approve of my understanding and I have always been on my own. But I think I have done fairly well because of a constant desire for understanding and an attachment to the second vow (I don't mean to imply that I am at all unique in this). But I think continually questioning everything is a good practice.

As far as believing that after reading one book, one understands everything - that person probably was reading the wrong book. All the books I have read, the great Chan and Zen writers of the 6th to the 18th centuries, including Dogen, write profound and difficult stuff that it would very obviously take anyone a lifetime to understand. Uji alone is good for a few decades

I have been reading the Mujo Seppo chapter of the Shobogenzo ("the proclamation of the law by inanimate beings") which is definitely good for a few decades.

thank you for your time,
rowan
who is busy wondering how she got so pompous........