Is it possible to focus just on Dogen?

[Jundo]

I think the Hee-Jin Kim book is a really good introduction and helped me to place Dogen within his time - which seems to be important despite the timeless nature of his words. I read a lot of other stuff as well but the balance is more weighted towards sitting these days.

Hee-Jin Kim and Steve Heine's book are wondrous, brilliant, filled with insightful insights ... BUT dense, very intellectual (sometimes overly so), sometimes too analytical for all their value. I might put those, while great books, at the end of the reading list for Dogen students, as wonderful as they are.

Steve Heine's new book, by the way (Readings of Dogen's "Treasury of the True Dharma Eye" ), is BRILLIANT (except for two parts where we disagreed, and I wrote to explain why to him), but I would say that one already needs some good handle on Dogen to really get through and appreciate it. The disagreement was about his interpretation of the Opening lines of Genjo Koan, and his finding "4 stages" of Zazen somewhere in a line of Genjo, which he admits is just his musing.

Gassho, J

[brucef]

Thanks to the Soto Zen group on Facebook, I’m now guilty of an impulse Kindle purchase - How to Raise an Ox: Zen Practice as Taught in Master Dogen's Shobogenzo by Francis Cook. I hope to read it soon. Apparently it’s supposed to be quite good.

Gassho
Bruce
Stlah

[Jundo]

Thanks to the Soto Zen group on Facebook, I’m now guilty of an impulse Kindle purchase - How to Raise an Ox: Zen Practice as Taught in Master Dogen's Shobogenzo by Francis Cook. I hope to read it soon. Apparently it’s supposed to be quite good.

Gassho
Bruce
Stlah

Yes, it is one of the easier to read and well stated explanations of Dogen Dharma. His other books too, such as Sounds of Valley Streams: Enlightenment in Dogen's Zen. I cannot recall now if I agreed with all the interpretations, and it is a bit on the scholarly side, but they are classics for Dogen folks.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Nanrin]

Yes, it is one of the easier to read and well stated explanations of Dogen Dharma. His other books too, such as Sounds of Valley Streams: Enlightenment in Dogen's Zen. I cannot recall now if I agreed with all the interpretations, and it is a bit on the scholarly side, but they are classics for Dogen folks.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Jundo, I'm not you, and your opinions, like everything else, are subject to change, but here's a few places where you've talked about the book "How to Raise an Ox" on Treeleaf:

Treeleaf media list

How to Raise an Ox AND Sounds of the Valley Streams, both by Francis Cook (translations of Shobogenzo sections, both books with essays by the author that are excellent introductions to Dogen and his teachings)

You asked some folks in the Soto Zen Buddhist Association about it - a dozen or so said that they like it and use it from time to time. ( Thread from 2014 )

Best place to start with Dogen thread from 2018

I want to say THANK YOU for reminding us of Prof. Cook's book. I spend a few hours this afternoon with his Introduction and short essays (first 50 pages or so) before his translations. I had not read the book since 15 years ago. It really is good. I cannot attest for the translations themselves, as I have not looked that closely. I think they are solid, if I remember correctly (they are not that widely quoted compared to Nishijima, Tanahashi and others). However, the short essays explaining Dogen's teachings on aspects of practice are excellent. So much so, that I will move the book to highly recommended for folks new to Dogen and Soto Practice on our Sangha reading list.

So good, that I am considering making it a future selection in our book club.

...

I feel he had a superb understanding of Dogen and a great ability to explain the same in relatively easy to understand terms. If there is one comment on the book, it is that he touches only on selected topics about Dogen, although the most important (such as "practice enlightenment" and the ordinary as sacred). Wonderful.

Yes, for anyone interested in the "best place to start with Dogen," this is one of the best (the Taigen Dan Leighton books mentioned, and Okumura Roshi's Genjo Koan are also indispensible). Lovely.

...

I can also recommend enthusiastically his treatment of "Hua-Yan" (Flower Garland) Buddhism, which had such an important influence on Dogen and other Zen masters. In Hua-yan understanding, Prof. Cook has passed away yet gone no place at all.

"Hua Yen Buddhism: The Jewel Net of Indra"

https://www.amazon.com/Hua-Yen-Buddh.../dp/027102190X

Based on that enthusiastic recommendation a couple years back I obtained a copy and have found it very helpful ever since. If these don't represent your opinion now I'm happy to remove them from this post to reflect your new understanding.

Gassho,

Nanrin

Sat today

[Jundo]

Jundo, I'm not you, and your opinions, like everything else, are subject to change, but here's a few places where you've talked about the book "How to Raise an Ox" on Treeleaf:



You asked some folks in the Soto Zen Buddhist Association about it - a dozen or so said that they like it and use it from time to time. ( Thread from 2014 )



Based on that enthusiastic recommendation a couple years back I obtained a copy and have found it very helpful ever since. If these don't represent your opinion now I'm happy to remove them from this post to reflect your new understanding.

Gassho,

Nanrin

Sat today

Yes, that's what I said: They are classics, and "one of the easier to read and well stated explanations of Dogen Dharma."

Of course, that was all back in the distant dark ages before that "Zen Master's Dance" book was available!

Gassho, J

STlah

[Doshin]

Yes, we will be dancing with my "The Zen Master's Dance" as our next book selection in the book club, sometime early next year.

Let me add to this:



... AND ALWAYS ALSO 3/3rds and 4/4ths practice through all of life too, on and off the cushion.

Gassho, J

STLah

Congratulations. Glad this will be a book club selection.

Doshin
St

[Nanrin]

Yes, that's what I said: They are classics, and "one of the easier to read and well stated explanations of Dogen Dharma."

Of course, that was all back in the distant dark ages before that "Zen Master's Dance" book was available! [emoji14]

Gassho, J

STlah

Silly me! I've taken a simple statement and made it complex [emoji14]

Nanrin

Sat today

[Bokucho]

Just a heads up for those who live in the United States and Canada, if you have a library card there's a resource where I've found a suprisingly large number of Buddhist books, particularly Dogen and Zen, and some of the books mentioned in this thread (I'm reading "Don't Be a Jerk" on there right now). It's free with e-books and audiobooks. If anyone is interested it's:

https://www.hoopladigital.com/

Gassho,

Josh
SatToday/LaH

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

[Seiko]

I was introduced to the writings of Dogen 40-some years ago and I am just now thinking of buying a translation of the complete Shobogenzo. Yes, it took me a few years to decide ��. Is there a particular version that you recommend please?
In Gassho
Al
Stlah

[Jundo]

I was introduced to the writings of Dogen 40-some years ago and I am just now thinking of buying a translation of the complete Shobogenzo. Yes, it took me a few years to decide ��. Is there a particular version that you recommend please?
In Gassho
Al
Stlah

Hi Allister,

In a nutshell, the Tanahashi Sensei version is probably the most readable, with the greatest sense of the musicality and poesy of Dogen's language style, although Tanahashi sometimes has to sacrifice literal translation to achieve that. My Teacher, Nishijima Roshi, with Chodo Cross (I have been told by academic Dogen scholars) is probably the most faithful in tracking Dogen's language, although sometimes loses some of the stylistic and musical sense of the language in doing so. The Order of Buddhist Contemplatives version, in my experience, often is a very free translation that wanders from what Dogen actually said sometimes (at least when I have looked closely at it), and goes for a "King James" biblical style that may be distracting. The Soto Zen Text Project is not yet fully available (you can still find many chapters online if you hunt around), but will be soon I hear and (while expensive) has the best footnoting tracing down and explaining the sourcing and Zen teachings that Dogen was working from. Those are the full versions. Probably Tanahashi is the best choice, but I also recommend to read two or three side-by-side to triangulate where Dogen was coming from as expressed in varied translations.

The partial translations by Tanahashi (such as Moon in a Dewdrop) and the Cook books are also excellent as a first purchase.

Nishijima and OBC are available for free online. Scroll down for "Shōbōgenzō: The True Dharma-Eye Treasury - Vol. I Vol. II Vol. III Vol. IV" here for Nishijima:

https://bdkamerica.org/tripitaka-list/

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Seiko]

Hi Allister,

In a nutshell, the Tanahashi Sensei version is probably the most readable, with the greatest sense of the musicality and poesy of Dogen's language style, although Tanahashi sometimes has to sacrifice literal translation to achieve that. My Teacher, Nishijima Roshi, with Chodo Cross (I have been told by academic Dogen scholars) is probably the most faithful in tracking Dogen's language, although sometimes loses some of the stylistic and musical sense of the language in doing so. The Order of Buddhist Contemplatives version, in my experience, often is a very free translation that wanders from what Dogen actually said sometimes (at least when I have looked closely at it), and goes for a "King James" biblical style that may be distracting. The Soto Zen Text Project is not yet fully available (you can still find many chapters online if you hunt around), but will be soon I hear and (while expensive) has the best footnoting tracing down and explaining the sourcing and Zen teachings that Dogen was working from. Those are the full versions. Probably Tanahashi is the best choice, but I also recommend to read two or three side-by-side to triangulate where Dogen was coming from as expressed in varied translations.

The partial translations by Tanahashi (such as Moon in a Dewdrop) and the Cook books are also excellent as a first purchase.

Nishijima and OBC are available for free online. Scroll down for "Shōbōgenzō: The True Dharma-Eye Treasury - Vol. I Vol. II Vol. III Vol. IV" here for Nishijima:

https://bdkamerica.org/tripitaka-list/

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Thank you Jundo. I have seen the OBC version and wondered at the choice of language style. Thank you.
Al.