Is it possible to focus just on Dogen?

**Seikan** · 11-12-2020, 08:16 PM

Hi Tomas,

I'm right there with you in wanting to take a deeper dive into Dogen. I wouldn't say that I want to exclude the teachings of others, but I do feel that I could benefit from a more focused course of study in 2021 that centers on Dogen. I'm reading Jundo's book now, and it is excellent! As always, he has a way of making the teachings more accessible to a modern student of Zen.

This isn't my first time delving into Dogen, but I'm using it as a platform to kick off a new round of study once Ango/Jukai is over. I have a sneaky feeling that a future book club selection may focus on Jundo's book too...

Perhaps we can pull a group of folks together for some sort of informal Dogen study group in 2021? It could be as simple as agreeing on a reading list/order and discussing as we go. Although, having the input of some more experienced folks here at Treeleaf to guide us would be ideal. There's been some chatter on this here and there, but perhaps now is the time to start planning? I'm certainly happy to help in any way.

Sorry for running long. I've been thinking about this a lot lately myself...

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-

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**Tomás ESP** · 11-12-2020, 08:32 PM

Hi Rob, that would be awesome! A study group on some book about Dogen's teachings for 2021 sounds excellent

. Here are some of the titles that I would like to read at some point:

1. The Zen master's dance: A guide to understanding Dogen and who you are in the universe (Jundo).

2. Realizing Genjokoan: The Key to Dogen's Shobogenzo (Shohaku Okumura).

3. How To Cook Your Life: From the ZEN Kitchen to Enlightenment (Kosho Uchiyama).

4. Deepest Practice, Deepest Wisdom: Three Fascicles from Shobogenzo with Commentary (Kosho Uchiyama).

5. Wholehearted Way: A Translation of Eihei Dagen's Bendowa (Kosho Uchiyama, translation by Shohaku Okumura).

6. The Mountains and Waters Sutra: A Practitioner's Guide to Dogen's "Sansuikyo" (Shohaku Okumura).

7. Readings of Dogen's "Treasury of the True Dharma Eye" (Steven Heine).

8. Visions of Awakening Space and Time: Dōgen and the Lotus Sutra (Taigen Dan Leighton).

9. Eihei Dogen: Mystical Realist (Hee-Jin Kim).

10. Leighton, T: Dogen's Extensive Record: A Translation of the Eihei Koroku (Taigen Dan Leighton).

11. Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation (Carl Bielefeldt).

12. Don't Be a Jerk: And Other Practical Advice from Dogen, Japan's Greatest Zen Master (Brad Warner).

(Sorry for going over 3 sentences).

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

**Onka** · 11-12-2020, 08:44 PM

If you want to get more familiar with Dogen then it's Zazen or more specifically Shikantaza you should stay focused on as this is what Dogen taught. As one of the founders of our school it's natural that we study his works as well but at the end of the day all roads lead back to Shikantaza and the source of our practice Siddhartha.
Gassho
Onka
ST

**Tomás ESP** · 11-12-2020, 09:26 PM

I completely agree Onka. Zazen is my priority and the first thing I do in the morning. And yet a key aspect of the eightfold noble path is right view. I feel joy as I read through the teachings of the masters. It helps me stay inspired, especially when I struggle with my practice.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&Lah

**Jundo** · 11-12-2020, 10:57 PM

Hmmm.

Speaking as a certified Shikantaza-fanatic

, and the fellow who "literally wrote the book (or "a" book) on Dogen," ... even I would say that it is best not to make Dogen's writings the main, or only, source of information and teachings on Soto Practice. The reason is that his style of writing and expressing was too arcane. Neither would I neglect him, and his words are a constant inspiration ... and I encourage someone to eventually make deep study on Dogen if Dogen inspires you so much (as he does me), by reading all those excellent books (that is certainly an excellent, comprehensive list of some of the best Dogen books out there) ...

... but to ONLY read Dogen is a bit like ONLY reading the Bible directly in hopes of understanding Christianity, or only reading the U.S. Constitution in order to understand U.S. government etc. etc. Yes, it is all in there, and is indispensable, but is only a key facet ... not the last word.

So, at most, maybe read 1/3 or 1/4 Dogen pure, and 1/3 or 1/4 explanations of Dogen, and 1/3 or 50% other texts about Soto and Zen practice ...

... AND ALSO ALWAYS 3/3rds and 4/4ths Shikantaza Zazen too!

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, J

STLah

**Kokuu** · 11-12-2020, 11:31 PM

1. The Zen master's dance: A guide to understanding Dogen and who you are in the universe (Jundo).

2. Realizing Genjokoan: The Key to Dogen's Shobogenzo (Shohaku Okumura).

3. How To Cook Your Life: From the ZEN Kitchen to Enlightenment (Kosho Uchiyama).

Those three are really worth reading (well I haven't actually received a copy of Jundo's book yet but have it on good authority from the man himself

) and Okumura's book on The Mountains and Waters Sutra. It is not that the others are not good, but I don't think they are as essential, and you would (in my opinion) be better dipping into the Shōbōgenzō itself before reading some of the others.

Another book I really like is Receiving the Marrow which is a collection of short commentaries on Shōbōgenzō fascicles by modern women Zen teachers.

My approach has been as Jundo suggests in mixing Dōgen studies with other things such as Zen history, Mahayana Sutras, early Buddhist scripture and classic science fiction.

I really like the idea of a Dōgen study group too but maybe that is for after the book club study of The Zen Master's Dance. I have an idea based on a combination of a tea house and book club based on what another sangha does, but need to talk to Jundo about that.

Apologies for length.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

**Seikan** · 11-13-2020, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by Kokuu

Those three are really worth reading (well I haven't actually received a copy of Jundo's book yet but have it on good authority from the man himself

) and Okumura's book on The Mountains and Waters Sutra. It is not that the others are not good, but I don't think they are as essential, and you would (in my opinion) be better dipping into the Shōbōgenzō itself before reading some of the others.

Another book I really like is Receiving the Marrow which is a collection of short commentaries on Shōbōgenzō fascicles by modern women Zen teachers.

My approach has been as Jundo suggests in mixing Dōgen studies with other things such as Zen history, Mahayana Sutras, early Buddhist scripture and classic science fiction.

I really like the idea of a Dōgen study group too but maybe that is for after the book club study of The Zen Master's Dance. I have an idea based on a combination of a tea house and book club based on what another sangha does, but need to talk to Jundo about that.

Apologies for length.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Kokuu,

Count me in for a Dogen study group regardless of format. And thanks for the info on "Receiving the Marrow". Perhaps that could be a part of our Dogen curriculum?

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-

**Yokai** · 11-13-2020, 01:18 AM

Great thread everyone!

Gassho, Chris satlah

**Jundo** · 11-13-2020, 01:24 AM

Yes, we will be dancing with my "The Zen Master's Dance" as our next book selection in the book club, sometime early next year.

Let me add to this:

... AND ALSO ALWAYS 3/3rds and 4/4ths Shikantaza Zazen too!

... AND ALWAYS ALSO 3/3rds and 4/4ths practice through all of life too, on and off the cushion.

Gassho, J

STLah

**Tomás ESP** · 11-13-2020, 06:05 AM

Thank you very much for the suggestions Jundo and Kokuu, I think I got a bit carried away with the excitement! 1/3 Dogen, 1/3 commentary, 1/3 other texts, 200% Shikantaza Zazen sounds like a much more balanced and comprehensive approach

. Count me in the reading discussions of "The Zen Master's Dance". Combining it with a Tea House sounds like an excellent idea

.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat

**Inshin** · 11-13-2020, 11:05 AM

My first Zen book was Master Torei "They undying Lamp of Zen" which convinced me that Zen is my path. That lead to Master Hakuin's writings, and the need of establishing sitted practice with intrest in Koans. However the Rinzai way proved to be impractical at this time in my life. Fortunately I bumped into Jundo online and Treeleaf and that's how Dogen creeped in my life. I enjoyed Uchiyama's writings, I'm going through Realising Genjokoan now. However I wouldn't say that I'm reading Shobogenzo or The complete Poison from a Thicket of Thorn. (please forgive me Jundo for my weakness to Rinzai) I rather taste it every other day, like coffee. These writings are for life, always to be returned to.
"The Zen Master's Dance" will arrive next week and I can't wait for the book forum to open again!
I'm sorry for writing more than 3 sentences.
Gassho
Sat

**Heiso** · 11-13-2020, 11:51 AM

I think I might be a Dogen dude too as I've read some of those books and the rest are on my wishlist. I like Jundo's suggestion of splitting reading into 1/3s though. Horin and I have been reading a chapter a week of Shobogenzo together since last ango and I seem to be working my way through Okumura's back catalogue a the same time so I could probably do with branching out into the wider soto world.

Gassho

Heiso

StLah

**Ryumon** · 11-13-2020, 12:13 PM

I have most of the books about Dogen cited above. I try to read a few a year; I've read many of them once or twice, and there was a spate of new books last year that I haven't gotten to yet. I think it's good to read Dogen, and books about Dogen, but not exclusively. And I'd certainly be interested in a study group.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

**Jinyo** · 11-13-2020, 09:33 PM

Well, I am really looking forward to receiving Jundo's book and studying it in the book club.

I have a fair few of the books on that comprehensive list but have to confess to being a bit of a 'dipper'. I can only take Dogen in small chunks as his writing is stylistically difficult and there's
a heck of a lot of philosophy if you're that way inclined (I am - which might be a minus rather than a plus)

I think the Hee-Jin Kim book is a really good introduction and helped me to place Dogen within his time - which seems to be important despite the timeless nature of his words. I read a lot of other stuff as well but the balance is more weighted towards sitting these days.

Would enjoy a study group though.

Gassho

Jinyo

sat today

sorry - went a bit over.