Clarification on Zazen

[Inshin]

The more I sit and the more I read I get more confused when it comes to Zazen. From one side it is said that zazen is not a meditation and all we do is to allow the reality to be as it is. In the following passage (please see attached screenshot from the book)rsz_2img_20201112_100715.jpg
rsz_img_20201112_100912.jpg , however it is written : "Today Zen students in temples throughout the land may sit many hours in meditation without lying down to sleep...., they never learn the way of entering a true state of meditation (dhyana). Because of that, the zazen they practice differs not in the least from that espoused by the heretical teachers. " Ju-ching gives some advice to Dogen, after which he experiences his "falling of the body and mind".
How do I know if my zazen is genuine and not simply sitting and starring at the wall?

Sorry for going over 3 sentences.

Gassho
Sat

[Kokuu]

Hi Ania

I think that reading too much about Zazen can be confusing, especially when it comes from different teachers and even traditions. Poison Blossoms from a Thicket of Thorns is a book about Master Linji (Rinzai) so will have a Rinzai Zen flavour to it.

From the passages you give, I would worry about the use of the word dhyāna in a Sōtō Zen context. This kind of meditative absorption is not what we aim for in Shikantaza. It is fine if it happens but is not the object of the practice and not to be clung to.

I find it best just to follow the instructions from Fukan Zazengi (https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng...anzanzeng.html) and Jundo himself:

Shikantaza is to be sat with a sense that there is nothing else but Shikantaza, nothing more needed or which can be needed outside the act of sitting Shikantaza itself. Shikantaza is a ritual enactment of Buddhas sitting as Buddhas, embodying the peace and satisfaction of "nothing more to attain but this" which only Buddhas can know. It is a "non-self fulfilling prophesy" which becomes complete when we sit it with the conviction that it is complete. The mere act of sitting itself is to be known in the bones as the completion of the universe, the fruition of life. No kidding, no exaggeration. There is not one drop outside of sitting to be desired, nothing lacking, nothing more to attain. Simply sitting this sitting is whole and absolute satiation of all desires, the one action needed in all space and time in that time of sitting. It is the only place to be or where one can be in the world.

One should let the thoughts go, with the mind and body upright yet not rigid. One sits in a balanced posture, one allows the breath to take a natural rhythm. But beyond that basic form, nothing more is sought or demanded whatsoever. In sitting, one may experience various degrees of peace, clarity, stillness or concentration, and the walls of self and other may soften or sometimes fully drop away. Yet, as counter-intuitive as it sounds, none of that is necessary, nothing like that can be the goal or point at all. Such states and attainments which do arise are never the purpose of sitting, are something like 'side effects,' are never pursued at all.

For this reason, Shikantaza is simply unlike any other form of "meditation," let alone most of our ordinary human life filled with needs and pursuits, where something is constantly missing or broken and something must be attained or fixed. In Shikantaza, there is nothing more that need be attained, not one flaw to fix, no question which is not fully resolved in the mere act of sitting. This sitting is just sitting that is sitting as sitting, free of any "I" that needs "something more" apart from sitting. When Master Dogen returned from China, such was the special twist which he placed upon the meditation forms which he had learned. (Thus his rejection of Zhanglu Zongze’s "Guidelines for Seated Meditation" and other popular Silent Illumination meditation manuals of the time).

The Buddha himself taught that doubt is one of the five hindrances that can arise during sitting and wondering whether we are sitting right is one of those. However, such doubts are also part of the totality of existence and to be sat with just as they are, without needing to believe them or push them away.

Apologies for length on this.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Jundo]

Hi Ania,

As Kokuu says, this is a largely fictional account re-imagined by the author, and there is no record like much of this in Dogen's diaries from China, apart from the general surrounding details and a portion of the dialogue. This is a retelling by perhaps the most "Rinzai of Rinzai" masters in Japan, the quintessential exponent of "Koan Introspection Zazen," the great Master Hakuin of the 18th Century, who significantly reworks the story. It is not fully historical, although based on what Dogen reported as having happened.

For example, in an actual translation of Dogen's diaries by Tanahashi, the depicted scene of Dogen's first meeting with Rujing is like this (pages 3-5). As you can see, no mention of "dhyana" in the discussion of teachers:

https://books.google.co.jp/books/about/Enlightenment_Unfolds.html?id=mHJL5b6dRVUC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

The portion about the left hand is partially true (p. 26), but absolutely nothing about "now both my hands have totally disappeared"! Nothing about the "the hundred and sixty bones and ... pores." In fact, that appears to be a paraphrase of Tahui, another great Rinzai and Koan Introspections teacher, and not a quote from Dogen and Rujing (bottom of p. 31 here):

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=ZmIOZQ59Z6gC&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=dogen+360+bones&source=bl&ots=EWr_Cm88aW&sig=ACfU3U0NgI6bRMmCqpLqpZwuvF5Sm5DQRA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiYq67fk_3sAhXQMd4KHczeDAQQ6AEwD3oECAYQAg#v=onepage&q=dogen%20360%20bones&f=false

The famous lines of "bodymind fallen away" are true (I spoke about it in my most recent essay here: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...ind-Drops-Away ), but not the lines about "like a brilliant sun illuminating the vast heavens ... "

So, as Kokuu said, realize that "Zen" books can come from different teachers and traditions.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Inshin]

Thank you Kotei.
Poison Blossoms from a Thicket of Thorn is a compilation of Master Hakuin writings, who had Dogen in high regard, and it looks from that passage that he engaged in Dogen's Shikantaza himself. I was wondering why Ju-ching (Dogen's teacher) would criticise some other monks, what were they doing wrong? (we know that sitting, engaged in thinking about shopping, or anything else, or dozing off is not zazen). And yes, I do question myself if I'm doing it all right.

Gassho
Sat

[Inshin]

Thank you Jundo for providing this historical clarification. Very interesting. You're like a Zen Google

Gassho
Sat

[Kokuu]

I was wondering why Ju-ching (Dogen's teacher) would criticise some other monks, what were they doing wrong?

My guess is that the monks may have been approaching practice with the idea of a goal or else going through the motions rather than sitting wholeheartedly.

Rujing/Ju-ching may also be criticising the use of other practice techniques which are not the silent illumination/Shikantaza which he taught, if Dogen is to be believed.

I do like that book from what I have read (and yes my apologies it is on Hakuin rather than Linji!) and think that Hakuin has many wise things to say but, as Jundo says, it may not always be accurate on aspects of Sōtō practice.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday

[Jinyo]

Hi Ania,

How do I know if my zazen is genuine and not simply sitting and starring at the wall?

I doubt there is any member here who doesn't sometimes have that thought. I think it comes down to trusting yourself because this isn't something we can all take an exam on and be given a pass.
I feel what happens off the cushion is just as important as what happens during sitting. If you're satisfied that your meditation is having a positive effect in other areas of your life I wouldn't worry too much. The instructions for practice are pretty clear here and I think yes - sometimes thoughts of shopping and umpteen other things will pop into our heads but that's an important part of the practice because we get to observe how we can let go of all that and returns to 'thinking non-thinking'.

There is a lovely video (I guess someplace in the archives from way past) when Jundo's little daughter had loved a song (I think it might have been from the early Frozen film) and Jundo mentioned he just knew that song was going to be going round and round in his head during Zazen. I found that incredibly comforting - that even an experienced teacher has these struggles
and its all ok.

Sorry for going over,

Gassho

Jinyo

[Jundo]

There is a lovely video (I guess someplace in the archives from way past) when Jundo's little daughter had loved a song (I think it might have been from the early Frozen film) and Jundo mentioned he just knew that song was going to be going round and round in his head during Zazen.

And now, it's back in my head!

Do you want to build a snow man ...

I can't "Let it Go!"

Gassho, J

STLah

[aprapti]

Thank you Jundo for providing this historical clarification. Very interesting. You're like a Zen Google

aprapti

std

[Bion]

Hi Ania,

As Kokuu says, this is a largely fictional account re-imagined by the author, and there is no record like much of this in Dogen's diaries from China, apart from the general surrounding details and a portion of the dialogue. This is a retelling by perhaps the most "Rinzai of Rinzai" masters in Japan, the quintessential exponent of "Koan Introspection Zazen," the great Master Hakuin of the 18th Century, who significantly reworks the story. It is not fully historical, although based on what Dogen reported as having happened.

For example, in an actual Translation of Dogen's diaries by Tanahashi, the depicted scene of Dogen's first meeting with Rujing is like this (pages 3-5). As you can see, no mention of "dhyana" in the discussion of teachers:

https://books.google.co.jp/books/about/Enlightenment_Unfolds.html?id=mHJL5b6dRVUC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

The portion about the left hand is partially true (p. 26), but absolutely nothing about "now both my hands have totally disappeared"! Nothing about the "the hundred and sixty bones and ... pores." In fact, that appears to be a paraphrase of Tahui, another great Rinzai and Koan Introspections teacher, and not a quote from Dogen and Rujing (bottom of p. 31 here):

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=ZmIOZQ59Z6gC&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=dogen+360+bones&source=bl&ots=EWr_Cm88aW&sig=ACfU3U0NgI6bRMmCqpLqpZwuvF5Sm5DQRA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiYq67fk_3sAhXQMd4KHczeDAQQ6AEwD3oECAYQAg#v=onepage&q=dogen%20360%20bones&f=false

The famous lines of "bodymind fallen away" are true (I spoke about it in my most recent essay here: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...ind-Drops-Away ), but not the lines about "like a brilliant sun illuminating the vast heavens ... "

So, as Kokuu said, realize that "Zen" books can come from different teachers and traditions.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

I am always deeply grateful for and impressed by your explanations and teachings. Thank you!

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[shikantazen]

Ania,

Soto zen is a practice of great faith. Working with a teacher (Jundo here) is vital (In my view the book you linked also is trying to emphasize the same). Once you do that, you simply sit daily (attend sesshins occasionally, follow precepts and live kindly) and you should be fine.

The judging and measuring mind keeps coming in and wants to know if you are doing it right. Just let it go as you do with any thought in zazen. I was like you when I started few years ago. Wanted to know if it is working. That feeling became lesser and lesser after few years of practice though it shows up occasionally. Please sit and trust you can't do it wrong. Also read "Opening the hand of thought" for the method description

Sorry for going over 3 sentences

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Jinyo]

And now, it's back in my head!

Do you want to build a snow man ...

I can't "Let it Go!"

Gassho, J

STLah

Happy Days - my grandkids loved it too

gassho

Jinyo

ST

[Jundo]

Another thing interesting from Dogen's diaries, in that scene in which Dogen has an early discussion with his teacher, Rujing, where there is criticism of other Zen teachers (pages 3-5), is that Dogen and Rujing actually seem critical of teachers in the Rinzai way. Maybe that is why Hakuin changed the story? At the time of Dogen's visit to China, Koan Introspection Zazen was becoming the hot trend, Dogen met or practiced with several Rinzai teachers at various monasteries, at least two of whom are said to have offered Dharma Transmission to Dogen. Dogen refused, and finally encountered Rujing, the only teacher he describes meeting in the Soto line, and from whom he eventually received Dharma Transmission.

With that background, the lines on pages 4 and 5 are interesting. Dogen says:

I asked, “Nowadays elders of different monasteries say that only say that only direct experience without discrimination—to hear the unhearable and seeing the unseeable—is the way of buddha ancestors. So they hold up a fist or a whisk, or they shout and beat people with sticks. This kind of teaching doesn't do anything to awaken students.

and

Teachers in the past and present talk about inherent knowledge; they liken it to a fish drinking water and immediately knowing whether it's warm or cold. Awakening is this kind of knowledge, they say, and this is itself enlightenment. I don't understand this.

That actually seems to be a criticism of the kind of Kensho, or immediate awakening, to one's original nature through use of shouts and hitting people with sticks that the Rinzai line was becoming famous for, and of which Hakuin himself was one of the greatest practitioners!

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=mHJL5b6dRVUC&q=whisk%2C+shout+or+beat#v=snippet&q=whisk%2C%20shout%20or%20beat&f=false

Maybe that is why he changed it.

(Sorry for running long. Please slap me.)

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

The judging and measuring mind keeps coming in and wants to know if you are doing it right. Just let it go as you do with any thought in zazen. I was like you when I started few years ago. Wanted to know if it is working. That feeling became lesser and lesser after few years of practice though it shows up occasionally. Please sit and trust you can't do it wrong. Also read "Opening the hand of thought" for the method description

Oh, yes, that is for sure! You gave us a hard time with all those doubts, and questions about how to measure, again and again!

Good to see that the snowman finally melted to water.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Onka]

I'd say Shikantaza has no goal while meditation us often goal oriented.
Gassho
Onka